U2start.com | Ethics of selling recordings

I knew there was something like that

I wanna say there's been other comments too, but that sums it all up.

Of course, if only they would actually enact policy at shows based off of these wishes, but again, another thread.

Chrisedge

9 years

from my defunct website...

It is well-known that all four members of U2 as well Paul McGuinness have more than once said in public that they do not have a problem with the swapping of recordings of U2 concerts as long as it is free and not business-like and nobody makes money with it.

********************************************************
From DJ ANNIE NIGHTINGALE INTERVIEW 1988
NIGHTINGALE: We've been asking people to ring in with some questions. This is an unusual one. Alan Ivory from Kent: "What do you think about bootleg tapes being sold?."
BONO: As long as people don't pay too much for them, we've no problem with bootlegs. What I have a problem with is people charging five quid for a record that's you know, inferior, or a live concert that's been done on a Walkman. They're just extorting people who are into music and into U2. So I really object to them, and I think that they should all have their toenails pulled out. But if they do them at reasonable prices, no problem.
MULLEN: I don't necessarily agree with Bono on this, because I think 99 per cent of it is rip-off merchants. The only system that works is when people tape things and swap them, no one has any objections to that. But when people start selling them on the street, I think it's always going to lead into extortion, and ripping people off.
SCOTT: Let's throw this over to Paul McGuinness, who's their manager. Do you actually go after the bootleggers?
McGUINNESS: Yes, if there are boatloads of them, yes. But I remember a few years ago when there was that stupid campaign that the record industry organized called "Home Taping is Killing Music". I remember thinking, "What a stupid thing to say. How could home taping kill music?. Home taping was spreading music, and I thought it was a good thing. Actually, let me qualify that a little. If there is some bastards in Taiwan who has got a boatload of counterfeit copies of Rattle and Hum, and he ships them to Europe, I hope it sinks….
http://classifieds.kingsoft-denmark.com/int1.htm

********************************************************
From Bono on BBC 1 Interview February 13, 1992
"The only thing that can piss you off is if people are charging a lot of money for something that isn't very good. It [the Hansa Studios, Achtung Baby working tapes] got bootlegged in Berlin and it was just like having your notebook read out. That's the bit I didn't like about it. There were no undiscovered works of genius, unfortunately, it was more just gobbledy-gook..." Note: Bono admits going out and buying a copy of that bootleg anyway!

********************************************************
From Edge on MSN Chat, August 10, 1997
"I don't have a problem with music being on the Internet, as long as it's not resold because I don't believe that music on the Internet is bad for music . . . I think it's OK for music. To me, it's a bit like when cassette tapes were first made available, the music industry thought that blank tapes would destroy the business because people would be at home churning out copies for their friends. It never happened. I think music on the Internet is going to work out as just another place for people to discover new things. "
"I have no problems with bootlegs, I think, again, if people make recordings and give them to their friends - as long as people don't get ripped off."

********************************************************
From Adam on MSN Chat, August 31, 1997
I think bootlegs are something that it's very difficult to stop. Obviously there are fans out there that want to buy them. I don't like overpriced bootlegs that are ripping the fans off. If they're good quality recordings of a show then I'm happy enough that people have access to those things and I know that there's a culture out there that listens to bootlegs. So I kind of tolerate it, provided the quality is good and the fans aren't being ripped off.

********************************************************
From Paul on MSN Chat, September 22, 1997
Well, I would distinguish between bootlegs and counterfeits. Counterfeit
albums, which are simply illegally produced reproductions of our records,
I obviously would take a very dim view of because they're taking money
from my clients' pockets.
The bootleg phenomenon, by which I presume you mean illegal live
recordings of the concerts - I'm very relaxed about that, quite honestly. I
think everyone knows the difference between an authorized live recording
that we would put out, for instance Under A Blood Red Sky or Rattle &
Hum - everyone kind of understands that that's a legitimate live recording.
The fact that people circulate and swap recordings they've made at our
concerts with tape recorders under their coats I'm actually very relaxed
about that. I know the industry is formally opposed to that kind of thing
but I'm not. I don't have a problem with it at all.
The other thing I do have a problem with are the recordings that are
produced in Europe in full color packaging, particularly in Italy, where
there's very inadequate copyright protection. In Italy, in any Italian record
store, you can find a whole range of things that look like official U2
recordings on CD with full color packaging and very often borrowing
from established U2 graphics and photography. They are usually of
extremely poor quality and they carry a very high price tag and I think
there should be more legal protection against things like that. But,
unfortunately, in Italy the law is utterly inadequate to deal with that.

********************************************************
From Bono in Billboard Sep 30, 2000
"The Edge is very pro-Napster, actually," Bono says. "He thinks that as long as people are using their computers for music, and not playing mindless games, that's good. My feeling," he adds, "is that it's cool for people to share our music -- as long as no one is making money from the process. We tell people who come to our concerts that they can tape the shows if they want. I think it's cool that people are so passionate about our music -- especially about this new album, quite honestly." http://www.billboard.com/feature/0929_u2_sp.asp (LINK NO LONGER WORKS)

********************************************************
From Paul in The Pitch Apr 12, 2001
"When Kelly told me about the bootlegs a few months ago, I wasn't sure that it would go," McGuinness says. "One worry was how enthusiastic the label would be to do it, but it would seem they've been cooperative. Three million total is a very significant result for Sony [Epic's parent company] as much as for the band. It just goes to show that if you make a good enough case, these giant corporations will do exactly what you want. It's been my experience they respond well to being infiltrated, and if you go to your corporation with a plan and it's a good one, very often you'll get total cooperation and have good results."
http://www.dallasobserver.com/issue...4-12/stuff.html (LINK NO LONGER WORKS)

********************************************************
From Bono on XFM, November 12, 2004
"Bootlegs are fine if you're making a few of them for your friends, I've no problem with that, but if it's big business, bad ass crime, I don't think you want to be a part of that -– and that's what this is. We're dealing with some nasty people and I don't think you should be paying for their summer holiday in Ibiza."
http://www.xfm.co.uk/Article.asp?b=news&id=53562

********************************************************
From Bono on Contactmusic December 23, 2004
"People sharing our music, personally I have no problem with. It's when they're doing it as a business, I have a real problem with that." http://www.contactmusic.com/new/xmlfeed.nsf/mndwebpages/bono%20not%20impacted%20by%20illegal%20internet%20sales

hoserama

9 years

I'm certainly seeing a common thread throughout the years amongst the band. Taping/trading = ok. Selling for profit = not ok.

LikeASong

9 years

^ YES. And more importantly, their management too.

Thanks for the impressive collection of detailed quotes, Chris. Appreciated. Just bookmarked your post for future reference, I will also quote it here just in case

Thanks again!

Spoiler (click to toggle)

It is well-known that all four members of U2 as well Paul McGuinness have more than once said in public that they do not have a problem with the swapping of recordings of U2 concerts as long as it is free and not business-like and nobody makes money with it.

********************************************************
From DJ ANNIE NIGHTINGALE INTERVIEW 1988
NIGHTINGALE: We've been asking people to ring in with some questions. This is an unusual one. Alan Ivory from Kent: "What do you think about bootleg tapes being sold?."
BONO: As long as people don't pay too much for them, we've no problem with bootlegs. What I have a problem with is people charging five quid for a record that's you know, inferior, or a live concert that's been done on a Walkman. They're just extorting people who are into music and into U2. So I really object to them, and I think that they should all have their toenails pulled out. But if they do them at reasonable prices, no problem.
MULLEN: I don't necessarily agree with Bono on this, because I think 99 per cent of it is rip-off merchants. The only system that works is when people tape things and swap them, no one has any objections to that. But when people start selling them on the street, I think it's always going to lead into extortion, and ripping people off.
SCOTT: Let's throw this over to Paul McGuinness, who's their manager. Do you actually go after the bootleggers?
McGUINNESS: Yes, if there are boatloads of them, yes. But I remember a few years ago when there was that stupid campaign that the record industry organized called "Home Taping is Killing Music". I remember thinking, "What a stupid thing to say. How could home taping kill music?. Home taping was spreading music, and I thought it was a good thing. Actually, let me qualify that a little. If there is some bastards in Taiwan who has got a boatload of counterfeit copies of Rattle and Hum, and he ships them to Europe, I hope it sinks….
http://classifieds.kingsoft-denmark.com/int1.htm

********************************************************
From Bono on BBC 1 Interview February 13, 1992
"The only thing that can piss you off is if people are charging a lot of money for something that isn't very good. It [the Hansa Studios, Achtung Baby working tapes] got bootlegged in Berlin and it was just like having your notebook read out. That's the bit I didn't like about it. There were no undiscovered works of genius, unfortunately, it was more just gobbledy-gook..." Note: Bono admits going out and buying a copy of that bootleg anyway!

********************************************************
From Edge on MSN Chat, August 10, 1997
"I don't have a problem with music being on the Internet, as long as it's not resold because I don't believe that music on the Internet is bad for music . . . I think it's OK for music. To me, it's a bit like when cassette tapes were first made available, the music industry thought that blank tapes would destroy the business because people would be at home churning out copies for their friends. It never happened. I think music on the Internet is going to work out as just another place for people to discover new things. "
"I have no problems with bootlegs, I think, again, if people make recordings and give them to their friends - as long as people don't get ripped off."

********************************************************
From Adam on MSN Chat, August 31, 1997
I think bootlegs are something that it's very difficult to stop. Obviously there are fans out there that want to buy them. I don't like overpriced bootlegs that are ripping the fans off. If they're good quality recordings of a show then I'm happy enough that people have access to those things and I know that there's a culture out there that listens to bootlegs. So I kind of tolerate it, provided the quality is good and the fans aren't being ripped off.

********************************************************
From Paul on MSN Chat, September 22, 1997
Well, I would distinguish between bootlegs and counterfeits. Counterfeit
albums, which are simply illegally produced reproductions of our records,
I obviously would take a very dim view of because they're taking money
from my clients' pockets.
The bootleg phenomenon, by which I presume you mean illegal live
recordings of the concerts - I'm very relaxed about that, quite honestly. I
think everyone knows the difference between an authorized live recording
that we would put out, for instance Under A Blood Red Sky or Rattle &
Hum - everyone kind of understands that that's a legitimate live recording.
The fact that people circulate and swap recordings they've made at our
concerts with tape recorders under their coats I'm actually very relaxed
about that. I know the industry is formally opposed to that kind of thing
but I'm not. I don't have a problem with it at all.
The other thing I do have a problem with are the recordings that are
produced in Europe in full color packaging, particularly in Italy, where
there's very inadequate copyright protection. In Italy, in any Italian record
store, you can find a whole range of things that look like official U2
recordings on CD with full color packaging and very often borrowing
from established U2 graphics and photography. They are usually of
extremely poor quality and they carry a very high price tag and I think
there should be more legal protection against things like that. But,
unfortunately, in Italy the law is utterly inadequate to deal with that.

********************************************************
From Bono in Billboard Sep 30, 2000
"The Edge is very pro-Napster, actually," Bono says. "He thinks that as long as people are using their computers for music, and not playing mindless games, that's good. My feeling," he adds, "is that it's cool for people to share our music -- as long as no one is making money from the process. We tell people who come to our concerts that they can tape the shows if they want. I think it's cool that people are so passionate about our music -- especially about this new album, quite honestly." http://www.billboard.com/feature/0929_u2_sp.asp (LINK NO LONGER WORKS)

********************************************************
From Paul in The Pitch Apr 12, 2001
"When Kelly told me about the bootlegs a few months ago, I wasn't sure that it would go," McGuinness says. "One worry was how enthusiastic the label would be to do it, but it would seem they've been cooperative. Three million total is a very significant result for Sony [Epic's parent company] as much as for the band. It just goes to show that if you make a good enough case, these giant corporations will do exactly what you want. It's been my experience they respond well to being infiltrated, and if you go to your corporation with a plan and it's a good one, very often you'll get total cooperation and have good results."
http://www.dallasobserver.com/issue...4-12/stuff.html (LINK NO LONGER WORKS)

********************************************************
From Bono on XFM, November 12, 2004
"Bootlegs are fine if you're making a few of them for your friends, I've no problem with that, but if it's big business, bad ass crime, I don't think you want to be a part of that -– and that's what this is. We're dealing with some nasty people and I don't think you should be paying for their summer holiday in Ibiza."
http://www.xfm.co.uk/Article.asp?b=news&id=53562

********************************************************
From Bono on Contactmusic December 23, 2004
"People sharing our music, personally I have no problem with. It's when they're doing it as a business, I have a real problem with that." http://www.contactmusic.com/new/xmlfeed.nsf/mndwebpages/bono%20not%20impacted%20by%20illegal%20internet%20sales

olli66

9 years

hoserama, thanks for the heads up on your mix where the singer goes nuts on the cellphone folk(s).
sounds like fun
my comment regarding the demand of live shows was based on the band/management checking forums and dime/jungleland. how could they know how many dvddubbingguy blu-rays are out there?
I am off this thread now. I will never sell my U2 recordings and those are my last words on the matter of "ethics" because we wanted to keep this thread polite and don't go down likea(nasty)song.

blueeyedboy

9 years

Just my random blah, blah, blah...

I've bought my share of boots in the 80's and 90's when they were more tangible. Like now, some were much better quality than others but you had the packaging at least if you bought a bust. (you couldn't listen first back then) Interestingly (see Paul quote above) most of the best were from Italy! I'd still be inclined to buy them if they were packaged and pressed like they were. Anyway... Sorry. Thats just my midweek two-cents, psychobabble

LikeASong

9 years

Originally posted by olli66:hoserama, thanks for the heads up on your mix where the singer goes nuts on the cellphone folk(s).
sounds like fun
my comment regarding the demand of live shows was based on the band/management checking forums and dime/jungleland. how could they know how many dvddubbingguy blu-rays are out there?
I am off this thread now. I will never sell my U2 recordings and those are my last words on the matter of "ethics" because we wanted to keep this thread polite and don't go down likea(nasty)song.

Nobody went out of track or got nasty as far as I can tell, but sorry if you felt so.

I'm sorry you're out of this thread just when you start to feel overwhelmed by the undeniable evidence, but I can surely understand you.

Bye. Enjoy your Jesper Munk show

(maybe ask him how he feels about bootlegging)

blueeyedboy

9 years

Originally posted by hoserama:My two cents--selling and such is a bit more grey than I'd like it to be. Everybody has a price. If I had opportunity to pay a chunk of change for something super rare that I wouldn't be able to get other wise (let's say a stash of Lovetown soundboards), would I take it? Yes. But I generally don't approve of selling/buying.

I strongly disapprove of selling a product. This is a hobby, and it's a slippery slope of selling bootlegs as a product. Once you sell a product, it's not about the time or effort that you put into it anymore--you're just salesman.

I do draw the distinction, like Chrisedge, of making an arrangement prior to the show. Then you're basically paying for the service. So if somebody buys my ticket and covers my basic expenses (parking, batteries, etc.) I don't have a problem with it. Let's say that comes out to $200. I would take that offer to tape a show, if I was interested. But if you came to me after the fact and tried to buy the recording from me for $200, I'd easily say no. Again, product vs service. If you're paying for the service, you also share the risk of things failing.

I will never sell the mixes I produce. I do those mixes for my own fun and enjoyment. Some of them I release, some of them I don't. So drawing the distinction between service vs product--if somebody paid me XYZ amount of money to mix a show, I wouldn't necessarily have an ethical issue of that. Again, doing a service. Yet I would not want that show sold as a product. And of course--if you actually paid me hourly for a good U2 mix, it wouldn't be affordable for most folks.

So in many ways, I don't think I'm disagreeing with Olli completely. I'm not fundamentally opposed to some level of compensation for time. I think it sets our hobby on a very dark path if we start flipping products for cash, and I strongly disagree with that.

Again, some may disagree with my distinctions here. I'm not saying it works for everyone. I do know that in the taper community for most folks I know, once you've been identified as somebody that sells recordings, your name is burned. Pretty sure I know at least one of the folks that Olli66 is talking about for Springsteen recordings, and their name got burned because they were identified as selling their recordings to a bootleg company. Karma bit, because the market dried up completely once Springsteen started releasing soundboards. At one point, many moons ago, I was offered $1000 by a bootleg cfor a Rolling Stones 2002 ALD recording from a bootleg company. Tempting for a 16 year old hoserama, but turned it down. Anyways, bit of a tangent there.

There's my 2 cents.

Good post.

JulienLossless

9 years

Originally posted by blueeyedboy:Just my random blah, blah, blah... I've bought my share of boots in the 80's and 90's when they were more tangible. Like now, some were much better quality than others but you had the packaging at least if you bought a bust. (you couldn't listen first back then) Interestingly (see Paul quote above) most of the best were from Italy! I'd still be inclined to buy them if they were packaged and pressed like they were. Anyway... Sorry. Thats just my midweek two-cents, psychobabble

but this topic is not about buying bootlegs (i have more than 200 silver cd from different artists) but about providing sources for them, or being yourself the bootlegger selling recordings. there will always be a market for those anyway, and there are still some copyright holes allowing some bootlegs to be sold out in the open, yet it remains something that is mostly run by various mafias.

blueeyedboy

9 years

Originally posted by JulienLossless:[..]
but this topic is not about buying bootlegs (i have more than 200 silver cd from different artists) but about providing sources for them, or being yourself the bootlegger selling recordings. there will always be a market for those anyway, and there are still some copyright holes allowing some bootlegs to be sold out in the open, yet it remains something that is mostly run by various mafias.

that's why i called it my random blah, blah, blah...

hoserama

9 years

Originally posted by olli66:hoserama, thanks for the heads up on your mix where the singer goes nuts on the cellphone folk(s).
sounds like fun
my comment regarding the demand of live shows was based on the band/management checking forums and dime/jungleland. how could they know how many dvddubbingguy blu-rays are out there?
I am off this thread now. I will never sell my U2 recordings and those are my last words on the matter of "ethics" because we wanted to keep this thread polite and don't go down likea(nasty)song.

Strange, I really didn't get a nasty vibe in this thread. I like to think we can have an honest fair discussion. Olli66--we've spoken about this in the past. While I know we don't agree on the issue, we can still be civil and agree to disagree.

karlheinzu2

9 years

Originally posted by hoserama:[..]
Strange, I really didn't get a nasty vibe in this thread. I like to think we can have an honest fair discussion. Olli66--we've spoken about this in the past. While I know we don't agree on the issue, we can still be civil and agree to disagree.

I agree as there wasn't any harm, but sadly your dialog partner had sinply declared having no further interests going on with this topic, so it should be accepted as you likely will not change his behaviour or ethics.
Hoserama you are maybe interested in the psychological aspects or crucial reasons leading to this behaviour (I also cannot comprehend his motivation except the money), but could be wrong of course, then sorry.
Too bad we could not conduct surveys like the NKVD did in order to gain satisfactory answers of our fundamental questions

, so some aspects will sadly remain unanswered.

Maybe we should start another topic for another vitally essential question, as there have been a noticable interest:
Does audio quality personally really matter or not? - The only essential thing is it has been published? (tempting other people with samples of own unreleased (U2-) recordings should be prohibited to avoid mental cruelty and therefore conducting the discusion should be based on recognized ethical principles.
Exception: Cellphone, sock, lingerie, etc. or restroom recordings (if they exist, please post) should be welcomed of course. I am also convinced there is some potential for an other well know taper to make a positive impact on the community if he would like to contribute on this topic.

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