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  1. I think you misunderstand my point - although perhaps I wasnt as clear as is possible.
    I never meant that Christianity has 3 different Gods. The way you put it was good - 3 distinct persons, but forming the 1 God.

    Re: Judaism - I probs didnt state that the best way either. Yeah, there's the common old testament however its only a partial revelation - never the whole picture of God or his plan (Hebrews 1:1-4). Without the New Testament to contextualise it, fulfil it and complete it, one is left with a very different picture of God - a God who takes vengeance, is wrathful, warmongering and pretty ferocious. Only when put in the context of the New Testament, demonstrating God's overall plan of Salvation in Jesus does the full picture of a loving, relational God come out. In OT times, He communicated only with prophets, now to all through the Bible and through prayer all can relate to Him.
    When you remove the NT, and only look at the OT of Judaism, you end up with a fundamentally different conception of God - his character is different to such an extent that you cant really claim He's the same being. It's also interesting to note that in Jewish Holy Texts such as the Torah and Talmud, the writings of many scholars and rabbis etc are incorporated into it - forming layers of belief, interpretation and scripture. In that sense, its a very post-modern religion. However, when you bring in that human element (from the perspective of someone who believes the Bible is 'God-breathed' you end up with an understanding of God tinged by human views rather that entirely scripturally/God informed.

    To the Christian, Jesus is the central aspect of faith - he offers faith, hope, love, salvation. Thus, the 3 characters of God in one becomes very important - to deny that (as Judaism does) is to deny a fundamental aspect of Christianity, and to remove a central tenant of the faith.

    Whilst both might be an attempt to honor the same God, each would argue that the other misunderstands and misrepresents God and is not serving Him at all. Judaism would claim, ultimately, that Christianity is based upon a sham, and Christianity would claim, ultimately, that Judaism is ignoring God and what he's done for us.

    So I would grant - in that case - that whilst worshipping the same God, Christianity and Judaism have very different understanding of the nature of God and of what constitutes following Him.

    Allah and Yahweh are definitely not the same God. The fact that similar prophets are referenced does not mean they are the same God. Firstly, in the Bible God refers to Himself as 'Yahweh' as the 'proper noun' name - his only true name you might say. In the Quaran, Allah is Allah. In terms of etymology Allah doesn't = Yahweh. Simply in terms of language they dont claim to be the same God.

    If they were the same God - why would God start an entirely new religion (in Islam) when he already had a well established religion (in Christianity) spreading throughout the world? Why would God intentionally bring two groups of his own followers into conflict? And why would he teach his two religions two fundamentally different teachings, and demand of them very different things - mean teachings and demands of the two being contradictory? Does God have multiple personality syndrome?

    Allah and Yahweh have different characters and different teachings. It would make no sense for them to be the same God. When the 'same being' demands such different things, its hard to believe those demands come from the one being.

    Now, if you want to claim that they essentially worship the same God but have different understandings/perceptions of Him, you'e got to start to wonder about what actually constitutes worship. God, being God, claims to deserve honour, praise, worships, whatever. Now, assuming one religion is right and the others are wrong, how do you think God is going to take it with the people that all got it wrong? He rightfully wants what is due to Him, thats why He's revealed Himself to us - so He's not going to take it too well when people have stuffed up and not followed him properly.
    However, you might not agree with that reasoning
    I am pretty sure a good Muslim will get to heaven before a bad Christian.


    This sort of dovetails into your point about good works - whilst the Catholic church tends to be keen on good works (along with Judaism and Islam) the Bible says we cant depend on them.

    Romans 3:10 says "There is no one righteous, not even one". All sin, and all deserve the penalty of death for their sins - its the consequence of the Fall when Adam and Eve first sinned.That was the point when death entered the world, and the point when they were thrown out of the Garden symbolises the point where our perfect relationship with God was destroyed. Because He is perfect, he cannot stand to be in the presence of Sin - and as sinners, we cant actually stand his presence (eg, Moses cant look at the burning bush, at the transfiguration of Jesus his disciples cant look at Him - the list goes on) He is simply too perfect.
    The Doctrine of Good Works assumes that by 'doing good stuff' we ourselves can get to a level thats acceptable to God. But God, being perfect and sinless, can only accept perfect and sinless - and who has ever lived the perfect life? Even the best of us have some pretty major shortcomings. When you're dependent on good works, there's never any certainty. it might be a good reason to live well - but how can you ever be certain you've done enough, or been good enough, to get in? Whats the standard? Do we know the standard? Can we ever meet or match the standard?
    The Bible is upfront in saying we cant meet God's perfect standard - there's nothing we can do to save ourselves. Sounds sort of hopeless in the end - except that Jesus offers hope and life. In his death and resurrection, he pays the penalty for our Sin (He was perfect - He was God, yet came to Earth as a man - he was tempted like us and can therefore relate to us in everyway by he remained pure and blameless) takes the death we deserve upon himself and opens the way for us to have a relationship with God and eternal life. For those who believe in this message of grace, mercy and salvation, there is a sure and certain hope in that one can be sure of what Jesus has done - there's no uncertain dependence on oneself. However - it is a matter of belief, and some find such belief amusing at best. Its a personal thing.
    As for his commandment to love the Lord your God - he claims to be God the Son. Therefore we are to love and follow him just as much and he says 'I am the way, the truth and the life, noone comes to the father except through me'. And as for loving your neighbour - he says to love others as God loved us - to be a 'light to the world' that by a Christians actions alone others might see God in them. Also, that love is twofold - not only to serve others, but to tell them about God and Jesus as well - as seen in the Great Commission.
    Ephesians 2:8-10 says "It is by grace you have been saved, through faith - and this not from yourselves, it is the gift of God - not by works, so that no one can boast. For we are God's workmanship, created in Christ Jesus to do good works, which God prepared in advance for us to do."
    That is pretty blunt in saying we're not saved by good works - but by faith in Christ. Good works are the grateful reaction to salvation. Out of gratitude and love for God, we do good works because we know we're saved in Him - its not a 'i hope this gets me saved' thing, its a 'i've been saved, im so thankful to God, im gonna serve Him by doing 'good stuff''. So based on what the Bible has to say - I would say no, good works dont get you to Heaven. They dont even help - its through faith in Jesus and what He's done for us. Thats the only way.

    So, as for the good Muslim over a bad Christian thing - it might sound arrogant, but the Christian believes that only those with faith in Christ are saved. So the best Muslim would be screwed. But then, the 'best Christian' might look great and do heaps of good stuff, but not really believe or have faith in Jesus - so they've got no hope either. The fact that salvation is in Jesus not works is the point of difference between Christianity and all other faiths. It might sound arrogant to claim everyone else is therefore wrong, but as a result, the Christian ought to compassionately want others to come to believe what they see as 'the truth'. Also, its just as arrogant on behalf of say, athiests to claim that billions of religious people are all wrong. As for a pluralist to say that all religions lead to the same God, to quote a guy called John Dickson who wrote a book called 'if i were God id make myself clearer' such a pluralistic view often disguises a lack of knowledge the claims and character of each faith to actually identify the differences between them and recognise the fact that they are very different and worship a different God. Im not saying thats the case with you, but a detailed investigation into Christianity and Islam(thats what we're talking about here), their claims, what is expected of their followers and the nature/character of the God, its pretty clear that its by no means the same God.

    Anyway, that was a massive post, and i gotta go do some HSC study


  3. Prob not, that reminds me to get a Stereophonics compilation, I only have Dakota - is that pretty much their best song?
  5. Wow, you sound just like the fundamentalist girl I was talking to on the bus. You're not in Sydney by any chance are you? Do you also believe in creationism?

    That was a big post, hard to respond to but I'll try by responding to your first points.


    Re: Judaism - I probs didnt state that the best way either. Yeah, there's the common old testament however its only a partial revelation - never the whole picture of God or his plan (Hebrews 1:1-4). Without the New Testament to contextualise it, fulfil it and complete it, one is left with a very different picture of God - a God who takes vengeance, is wrathful, warmongering and pretty ferocious. Only when put in the context of the New Testament, demonstrating God's overall plan of Salvation in Jesus does the full picture of a loving, relational God come out. In OT times, He communicated only with prophets, now to all through the Bible and through prayer all can relate to Him.


    1. I'm pretty sure God communicated with people in the Old Testament other than prophets, like David, Esther, Solomon etc. Jews pray to God as well you realise, so do Muslims, it's not a Christian invention.

    And the God of the New Testament isn't quite so nice either - just look at Revelation

    When you remove the NT, and only look at the OT of Judaism, you end up with a fundamentally different conception of God - his character is different to such an extent that you cant really claim He's the same being. It's also interesting to note that in Jewish Holy Texts such as the Torah and Talmud, the writings of many scholars and rabbis etc are incorporated into it - forming layers of belief, interpretation and scripture. In that sense, its a very post-modern religion. However, when you bring in that human element (from the perspective of someone who believes the Bible is 'God-breathed' you end up with an understanding of God tinged by human views rather that entirely scripturally/God informed.


    Yes, but don't forget that the Gospels also include the writings and views of the evangelists and also form layers of belief, interpretation and scripture.



    To the Christian, Jesus is the central aspect of faith - he offers faith, hope, love, salvation. Thus, the 3 characters of God in one becomes very important - to deny that (as Judaism does) is to deny a fundamental aspect of Christianity, and to remove a central tenant of the faith.

    Whilst both might be an attempt to honor the same God, each would argue that the other misunderstands and misrepresents God and is not serving Him at all. Judaism would claim, ultimately, that Christianity is based upon a sham, and Christianity would claim, ultimately, that Judaism is ignoring God and what he's done for us.

    So I would grant - in that case - that whilst worshipping the same God, Christianity and Judaism have very different understanding of the nature of God and of what constitutes following Him.



    You fail to see the point; it's like saying, that say I see my father as unnecessarily strict and difficult while my brother thinks he's well meaning and has my best interests at heart- our perceptions may be different, but it's still the same person.

    Regardless of their concepts of God (which are actually quite similar - not like say Hinduism, which is totally different) all three religions explicity identify that they share the same God - there is no way around this (unless you'd like to start your own religion). Christianity is simply a 'new covenant' with Yahweh, Jews simply choose reject this new relationship and stick to their existing covenant with Yahweh. The two religions simply have different relationships with the very same God.


    Allah and Yahweh are definitely not the same God. The fact that similar prophets are referenced does not mean they are the same God. Firstly, in the Bible God refers to Himself as 'Yahweh' as the 'proper noun' name - his only true name you might say. In the Quaran, Allah is Allah. In terms of etymology Allah doesn't = Yahweh. Simply in terms of language they dont claim to be the same God.

    If they were the same God - why would God start an entirely new religion (in Islam) when he already had a well established religion (in Christianity) spreading throughout the world? Why would God intentionally bring two groups of his own followers into conflict? And why would he teach his two religions two fundamentally different teachings, and demand of them very different things - mean teachings and demands of the two being contradictory? Does God have multiple personality syndrome?

    Allah and Yahweh have different characters and different teachings. It would make no sense for them to be the same God. When the 'same being' demands such different things, its hard to believe those demands come from the one being.


    Allah is the same God as Yahweh, Muhammad and Quran explicitly say that Allah is the same as the God of the Hebrews and the Christians. The Quran has the same Adam and Eve who disobeyed God, the same Abraham who was asked to sacrifice his son to the same God, the same Moses who led the Israelites out of Egypt etc.

    The name is different because Allah is the Arabic word for 'God". Just as most Christians simply call God, "God" and not "Yahweh", so the Muslims call him "Allah".

    Well, Islam did convert most of the Middle East to worshipping the Abrahmic god and replaced the polytheistic pagan religions prevalent at the time.

    The big problem with God, is that he doesn't directly say anything, he works in mysterious ways.
    If he just appeared to us and told us what he wanted to do, everyone would have the same religion and there'd be no atheists, but it doesnt work like that does it?

    And are the teachings really that different? I mean i'm sure the ten commandments and 'love your neighbour as yourself' is followed in Islam as it is in Judaism and Christianity. The differences in 'commandments' are mostly minor and can be explained by the cultural influences present.


    Now, if you want to claim that they essentially worship the same God but have different understandings/perceptions of Him, you'e got to start to wonder about what actually constitutes worship. God, being God, claims to deserve honour, praise, worships, whatever. Now, assuming one religion is right and the others are wrong, how do you think God is going to take it with the people that all got it wrong? He rightfully wants what is due to Him, thats why He's revealed Himself to us - so He's not going to take it too well when people have stuffed up and not followed him properly.
    However, you might not agree with that reasoning


    Have you considered that perhaps all are right to some degree or another and that God prefers worship done imperfectly over no worship at all. It's the effort that counts after all.

    And I belive Jesus said he came to save all men and died for the sins of all men, not just Christians.

    Perhaps Christianity is the 'best' religion and surest path to God and salvation and most pleasing to him but that doesn't have to mean it's the only path.
  6. "...for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God..." ~Romans 3:23

    "For whoever keeps the whole law but fails in one point has become accountable for all of it." ~James 2:10

    "For the wages of sin is death, but the free gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord." ~Romans 6:23

    "...but God shows his love for us in that while we were still sinners, Christ died for us." ~Romans 5:8

    "For God so loved the world, that he gave his only Son, that whoever believes in him should not perish but have eternal life." ~John 3:16

    "...Christ died for our sins in accordance with the Scriptures, that he was buried, that he was raised on the third day in accordance with the Scriptures, and that he appeared to Cephas, then to the twelve." ~1 Corinthians 15:3-5

    "Jesus said to him, "I am the way, and the truth, and the life. No one comes to the Father except through me." ~John 14:6

    "...because, if you confess with your mouth that Jesus is Lord and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved. For with the heart one believes and is justified, and with the mouth one confesses and is saved." ~Romans 10: 9-10

    "For by grace you have been saved through faith. And this is not your own doing; it is the gift of God, not a result of works, so that no one may boast." ~Ephesians 2:8-9

    "For what can be known about God is plain to them, because God has shown it to them. For his invisible attributes, namely, his eternal power and divine nature, have been clearly perceived, ever since the creation of the world, in the things that have been made. So they are without excuse." ~Romans 1:19-20

    That's what I believe.

  7. Haha, no im not quite from Sydney - and im not quite 'fundamentalist' but for me the Bible is the ultimate authority, divinely inspired and needs to be interpreted through itself rather than what we think. So think of that what you will. No not Creationist - I dont think God would create the world in 7 literal days then make it appear as though it was billions of years old. Its not in His character to deceive us like that. Like had been mentioned in the thread earlier, He's outside of time - he created it so it doesnt apply to Him the same way it does to us. More importantly, all that part of Genesis is written in a poetic style in the original Hebrew - its not meant to be taken literally as a description of the way God created the world (he may very well have used the Big Bang and evolution - i have no problem with that but I'm sure that like every scientific theory, they will change with time) its a description of why he did it - it gives it purpose and meaning. It was to bring glory to Himself and to bring us into a relationship with Him.

    My point about relating to God through prayer isnt so much just about prayer itself as the relationship being enabled through Jesus and re: revelation - it may appear nasty, but in the context of the rest of the Bible, it is
    actually pretty awesome. Sure many are getting their 'just deserts' and what they've been told for the past 1000 pages is coming for them - but then all those who are saved are being saved. When no one deserves salvation at all and its only through God's love in Jesus that in itself is pretty incredible. You only have to look at Rev 21:1-4 to see the amazing, incredible perfect result of God finally being fully reunited with His people.

    I think the main difference between the Torah and Talmud and the Gospels there is that the Gospels are all written by Apostles of Jesus - men who He lived with and taught in order that they might actually write the Gospels. Look at 2 Corinthians for a good defence of Paul's apostleship and the reasons for all that.

    You fail to see the point; it's like saying, that say I see my father as unnecessarily strict and difficult while my brother thinks he's well meaning and has my best interests at heart- our perceptions may be different, but it's still the same person.


    I think maybe you dont get what Im saying about the significance of Jesus in my point. I will grant that Christianity and Judaism have the same 'God' but I've already outlined my reasons as to why its an entirely different understanding and conception of Him. I think perhaps, when one takes your line of argument
    Jews simply choose reject this new relationship and stick to their existing covenant with Yahweh. The two religions simply have different relationships with the very same God.
    you end up having to question what actually constitutes worship of God. A perfect God, who wants and deserves all honour, glory and praise isnt going to accept some half-arsed attempt. From a Christian perspective, he makes that pretty clear in saying that goo works dont get you in - its only through Jesus. So a Christian might say that Judaism doenst really follow God - it insults Him by ignoring Jesus. Just the same, Judaism might say that Christianity makes a mockery of God by believing in Jesus and whatever else.

    The big problem with God, is that he doesn't directly say anything, he works in mysterious ways.

    I think God speaks very directly on a lot of issues - pick your Abrahamic religion, each has its holy text (Bible, Koran, Talmud/Torah) and in each God speaks directly to His people. To the Jews and the OT through the prophets/rabbis etc. To Islam through Muhammad, and the Christians and the NT through Jesus (God himself) and his Apostles. Yes, His ways are often mysterious and beyond our understanding - but He is not a deceptive God. Once again, I guess you could take the 'what constitutes worship' argument and suggest that only one religion (take your pick) actually worships God properly regardless of who he is or how 'common' to the religions he is.

    If he just appeared to us and told us what he wanted to do, everyone would have the same religion and there'd be no atheists, but it doesnt work like that does it?

    Do you really think that? Say God does show up - and tell us to follow Him (although the Christian thinks He's already done that as Jesus) people still arent all going to follow Him. We've all got sinful natures and we all want control of our own lives - we dont want to arbitrarily submit to some God no matter how powerful, how loving, how *whatever* he is. When Jesus came, they killed Him they didnt all follow Him. Or the parable of the Rich Man and Lazarus in Luke 16:19-31 - the rich dude ignores poor old beggar Laz all his life, dies, goes to Hell and Laz ends up in Heaven. The rich guys asks them to send Lazarus to his house, to tell his family about God to save them from Hell and Abraham (who he's talking to) says they've got the prophets - listen to them. The rich dude says no, 'if someone raised from the dead goes to them they will repent' but he's rebuked as Abraham says 'if they dont listen to Moses and the prophets, they wont repent even if someone comes from the dead'.

    I think there are significant differences between the religions. Christianity isnt about the 10 commandments. No one is good enough to keep them for a start. Romans explains how they really just paint the perfect picture of Jesus to show there's no way we're good enough for God and that only in Jesus we can be saved. Islam and Judaism are all about 'doing stuff' and hoping you do enough good stuff to get in. The Bible explicitly rejects that notion and says we're not good enough to save ourselves - but it offers hope, grace, love and mercy through Jesus. Christianity isnt about the commandments at all - its all about jesus loving him and living for Him. Im sure that Islam and Judaism have more to them than mere commandments as well.
    A good point of illustration here is 'Bono on Bono' the interview bio thing. Have you read it? There's a reason why Bono is often very critical of 'religion' per se in it, but why he's constantly waxing lyrical about Jesus and God's love. He recognises the significance of the grace and mercy Im talking about here. Mercy - not getting the punishment you do deserve, Grace - getting the gifts you dont deserve.

    Have you considered that perhaps all are right to some degree or another and that God prefers worship done imperfectly over no worship at all. It's the effort that counts after all.

    The moment you start actually reading any holy text, it becomes apparent that this isnt the case. The Bible says God is a 'jealous God' he wants the praise due to Him. If you look at parts of the Old Tesament, theres hundreds of rules about how to worship God properly, how to serve Him properly, how to make offerings properly etc. Now, thats all part of the Old Covenant and is replaced by Jesus - but it emphasises the fact that God is perfect and wants to be worshipped properly. I think I've already made it pretty clear based on what i've said about faith vs works that its not about the effort at all - the point is that our effort is never good enough. For the Christian, its only in Jesus. Yeah, he said He came to save all men, and thats what He did on the cross - and now He wants all men to believe in that. He made the way open to all - and its up to people to take that offer.
    Now its pretty counter-intuitive compared to our world where its all about what you can do and earn - its a massive paradigm shift and can be a hard concept to grasp. But the Bible makes very clear that its the central tenant of Christianity. Jesus says He's the ONLY path to God.
    Of course, it is a matter of belief, many reject that notion and think their own religion is the only way. But when you look into it, there's a lot of differences between the religions - a lot of contradictions - which means they cant all actually be true.
    Of course, I believe that Christianity is the only path - but just as verily a Jew might think that theirs is the only path, a Muslim might think the same.
    If you want to do some reading - I'd recommend a book called 'a spectators guide to world religions' by John Dickson its a pretty balanced view of the differences between all the different religions and is an easy read. You'd be able to get it through most Christian bookshops.
    Anyway, its been a really good discussion and really interesting - but im afraid Im not gonna be able to spend much more time on it for the moment. I dont know that I'll have the time to give you a considered reply to what you write next, so we might have to agree to disagree and call it a matter of faith
  8. I believe in U2
  9. Originally posted by goldy:Haha, no im not quite from Sydney - and im not quite 'fundamentalist' but for me the Bible is the ultimate authority, divinely inspired and needs to be interpreted through itself rather than what we think. So think of that what you will. No not Creationist -


    Thank God for that, I can't argue with creationists, they're seriously as bad as the people who still think the world is flat.

    My point about relating to God through prayer isnt so much just about prayer itself as the relationship being enabled through Jesus and re: revelation - it may appear nasty, but in the context of the rest of the Bible, it is
    actually pretty awesome. Sure many are getting their 'just deserts' and what they've been told for the past 1000 pages is coming for them - but then all those who are saved are being saved. When no one deserves salvation at all and its only through God's love in Jesus that in itself is pretty incredible. You only have to look at Rev 21:1-4 to see the amazing, incredible perfect result of God finally being fully reunited with His people.


    I'm pretty sure most of the OT figures prayed to God and had their prayers answered by God, it's not like only when Jesus came around God started listening to us, perhaps he perfected the relationship but there definitely was a relationship between God and his chosen people.

    I was only pointing out that the God of the new testament is still vengeful and judgemental, perhaps less so but it's not like the Old Testament God started taking Valium and became some calm, easygoing god.

    I think the main difference between the Torah and Talmud and the Gospels there is that the Gospels are all written by Apostles of Jesus - men who He lived with and taught in order that they might actually write the Gospels. Look at 2 Corinthians for a good defence of Paul's apostleship and the reasons for all that.


    Last time I checked the Torah is held to be written by Moses and the rest of the OT the prophets, are you saying the did not have relationships with God and did not also receive revelation?

    And none of the twelve apostles wrote the Gospels - the Gospels were only written decades after Jesus. Note how Jesus never instructed anyone to write a Gospel, instead to go out and preach to the world, this was done orally and only when an the end of the first generation of the church was thought turned to writing accounts of Jesus and his teachings down so that they wouldn't be forgotten or corrupted over time.

    I think maybe you dont get what Im saying about the significance of Jesus in my point. I will grant that Christianity and Judaism have the same 'God' but I've already outlined my reasons as to why its an entirely different understanding and conception of Him. I think perhaps, when one takes your line of argument

    you end up having to question what actually constitutes worship of God. A perfect God, who wants and deserves all honour, glory and praise isnt going to accept some half-arsed attempt. From a Christian perspective, he makes that pretty clear in saying that goo works dont get you in - its only through Jesus. So a Christian might say that Judaism doenst really follow God - it insults Him by ignoring Jesus. Just the same, Judaism might say that Christianity makes a mockery of God by believing in Jesus and whatever else.


    Jesus is significant, the fact that Judaism and Islam don't worship Jesus would be a big problem if Christianity believed in 3 Gods - then understandably Jesus would be angry that they are ignoring him and just worshipping God the Father, but Christians believe in ONE god and so if Jews worship God the Father they are also worshipping Jesus, because they are one and the very same God. If this wasn't the case God the Father would take offense and be jealouss at the fact that most Christian churches focus the majority of their worship on Jesus.

    I also think that a perfect God will accept imperfect humanity. It would seem that he does, judging by all the imperfections of the Bible, so I think rather than condemning those who do not know better he will accept their imperfect worship - after all it's the thought that counts. It's like a 5 yr old giving some terrible gift to their father, the father may not think much of the gift but appreciates the effort and knows that the child is trying to please him.

    I think God speaks very directly on a lot of issues - pick your Abrahamic religion, each has its holy text (Bible, Koran, Talmud/Torah) and in each God speaks directly to His people. To the Jews and the OT through the prophets/rabbis etc. To Islam through Muhammad, and the Christians and the NT through Jesus (God himself) and his Apostles. Yes, His ways are often mysterious and beyond our understanding - but He is not a deceptive God. Once again, I guess you could take the 'what constitutes worship' argument and suggest that only one religion (take your pick) actually worships God properly regardless of who he is or how 'common' to the religions he is.


    I didn't mean that, I meant to say he doesn't communicate with us directly, we do not receive private revelation from him.

    Do you really think that? Say God does show up - and tell us to follow Him (although the Christian thinks He's already done that as Jesus) people still arent all going to follow Him. We've all got sinful natures and we all want control of our own lives - we dont want to arbitrarily submit to some God no matter how powerful, how loving, how *whatever* he is. When Jesus came, they killed Him they didnt all follow Him. Or the parable of the Rich Man and Lazarus in Luke 16:19-31 - the rich dude ignores poor old beggar Laz all his life, dies, goes to Hell and Laz ends up in Heaven. The rich guys asks them to send Lazarus to his house, to tell his family about God to save them from Hell and Abraham (who he's talking to) says they've got the prophets - listen to them. The rich dude says no, 'if someone raised from the dead goes to them they will repent' but he's rebuked as Abraham says 'if they dont listen to Moses and the prophets, they wont repent even if someone comes from the dead'.


    Yes? Don't you? if an omnipotent God suddenly appeared and threatened us with destruction or eternal punishment if we didn't follow him, I'm pretty sure people would.
    I mean the only reason they are atheists is because there is no solid, certain proof of God.

    If Jesus had miraculously destroyed his enemies I am sure there would be no Jews today.

    It's funny that you bring up Lazarus and Dives, yes it does foreshadow Jesus' rejection and death but also - why is the Rich Man in hell? Because despite being obscenely wealthy he ignored the poor beggar starving on his doorstep.

    I think there are significant differences between the religions. Christianity isnt about the 10 commandments. No one is good enough to keep them for a start.


    Really, you believe that? I'm sure that there are some people that have (like the Pharisees), It's definitely not easy though. But it's absolutely ridiculous to say that the 10 commandments are irrelevant, perhaps we can't keep them all of the time, that doesn't mean you shouldn't try.

    If it was a hopeless cause, why would God give them to us in the first place? I mean I'm pretty sure he gave the commandments to flawed humanity after the fall - so clearly he thought them possible to live by (unless of course you reject the wisdom of God, or indeed make him out as being deceptive and say that he gave us commandments despite humanity being completely unable to keep them).

    . Islam and Judaism are all about 'doing stuff' and hoping you do enough good stuff to get in. The Bible explicitly rejects that notion and says we're not good enough to save ourselves - but it offers hope, grace, love and mercy through Jesus. Christianity isnt about the commandments at all - its all about jesus loving him and living for Him. Im sure that Islam and Judaism have more to them than mere commandments as well.


    Love of God first and foremost is the fundamental tenet of Judaism and Islam and indeed all religions. And exactly, "abide now in faith, hope, and love, these three; and the greatest of these is love" (1 Corinthians 13:13)
    You have faith in God, you have hope in salvation and you show love to your neighbour - ALL religions are about these basic principles, so I disagree with you when you say Christianity isn't like the others as that quote clearly shows tha Christianity is not just about faith.

    A good point of illustration here is 'Bono on Bono' the interview bio thing. Have you read it? There's a reason why Bono is often very critical of 'religion' per se in it, but why he's constantly waxing lyrical about Jesus and God's love. He recognises the significance of the grace and mercy Im talking about here. Mercy - not getting the punishment you do deserve, Grace - getting the gifts you dont deserve.


    I agree completely, grace not karma and this doesn't just apply to Christians -
    "blessings aren't only for the ones who kneel - luckily"

    Grace is God accepting human beings in their imperfection and also why Jews and Muslims (or indeed Christians) are not damned for simply being Jews or Muslims.

    Why does Bono do all his humanitarian work? Because God demands it as he puts it- "God is looking for action"

    Bono clearly believes this as seen by his actions; and why else would he sing in Beautiful Day:
    "...someone you can lend a hand in return for grace"

    Another excellent quote from Bono on the three Abrahamic faiths and how essentially similar they are:

    "Do unto others as you would have them do to you. Jesus says that [Luke 6:30]. "Righteousness is this: that one should... give away wealth out of love for Him to the near of kin and the orphans and the needy and the wayfarer and the beggars and for the emancipation of the captives." The Koran says that [2.177]. Thus sayeth the Lord: "Bring the homeless poor into the house, when you see the naked, cover him, then your light will break out like the dawn and your recovery will speedily spring fourth, then your Lord will be your rear guard." The Jewish Scripture says that. It's Isaiah 58 [verses 7-8] again. It's a very powerful incentive: "The Lord will watch your back." Sounds like a good deal to me, especially right now." Bono Quotes



    The moment you start actually reading any holy text, it becomes apparent that this isnt the case. The Bible says God is a 'jealous God' he wants the praise due to Him. If you look at parts of the Old Tesament, theres hundreds of rules about how to worship God properly, how to serve Him properly, how to make offerings properly etc.


    Yes, he might be a jealous God, but Jews and Muslims worship the same God as Christians so thats not a big problem.

    Now, thats all part of the Old Covenant and is replaced by Jesus - but it emphasises the fact that God is perfect and wants to be worshipped properly. I think I've already made it pretty clear based on what i've said about faith vs works that its not about the effort at all - the point is that our effort is never good enough. For the Christian, its only in Jesus. Yeah, he said He came to save all men, and thats what He did on the cross - and now He wants all men to believe in that. He made the way open to all - and its up to people to take that offer.


    I think you're getting confused, obviously we are unable to be saved by our works alone -there's no mechanism that does that, humanity are slaves to physical laws and death - we can't escape it ourselves no matter what we do. Salvation is clearly due to God's intervention, even if we never commit a sin we would still go to hell, cease to exist etc. if God did not choose to intervene. So I completely agree with you there.

    But who says making effort isn't good enough? I'm sure for some people eg. those who sacrifice their own lives to save others or who give up an easy, comfortable life to help the poor God will be pleased with their efforts.

    If he that doesn't matter one bit to him, then he's a terrible God, frankly even worse than the Old Testament God and I (and I think most people) don't believe in such a God and the Gospels clearly show that this is not the case. Jesus said "Be perfect, therefore, as your heavenly Father is perfect." Mt5:48 and also explicitly against those who merely have faith in Christ:
    Not everyone who says to me, 'Lord, Lord,' will enter the kingdom of heaven, but only he who does the will of my Father who is in heaven."


    And again in Luke 10, here is Jesus himself (not merely some apostle) explicity teaching on what you must do to merit salvationt:
    On one occasion an expert in the law stood up to test Jesus. 'Teacher,' he asked, 'what must I do to inherit eternal life?' 'What is written in the Law?' he replied. 'How do you read it?' He answered: ' "Love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your strength and with all your mind" '; and, ' "Love your neighbor as yourself." ' 'You have answered correctly,' Jesus replied. 'Do this and you will live



    Now its pretty counter-intuitive compared to our world where its all about what you can do and earn - its a massive paradigm shift and can be a hard concept to grasp. But the Bible makes very clear that its the central tenant of Christianity. Jesus says He's the ONLY path to God.


    By dying Jesus destroyed the separation between God and Man that was a result of the sin of Adam & Eve and by doing so allowed ALL men to be saved (Now that doesn't mean that all men will be saved, only that they can be). He opened up a "window in the skies" if it were.
    So when Jesus says no one comes to the father except through me, it's perfectly correct that by dying he saved humanity from their sins.

    Of course, it is a matter of belief, many reject that notion and think their own religion is the only way. But when you look into it, there's a lot of differences between the religions - a lot of contradictions - which means they cant all actually be true.

    Of course, I believe that Christianity is the only path - but just as verily a Jew might think that theirs is the only path, a Muslim might think the same.


    I think if you want to see the differences and ignore the similarities (unlike Bono as quoted earlier)
    then you will only see that.

    And actually, Jews believe that all Gentiles who keep the Noahide Law is assured of a place in heaven, same with Muslims who believe that all "People of the Book" will also be saved depending on their love of God and good deeds.

    So you're pretty much alone here -
    I think most people who want to be inclusive and non-judgemental believe that God is bigger than we are and able to see past petty, human differences. After all that is the way a human sovereign would be expected to act and not a perfect, all loving God.

    I think it is summed up best by Paul:
    And if I have prophetic powers, and understand all mysteries and all knowledge, and if I have all faith, so as to remove mountains, but do not have love, I am nothing. If I give away all my possessions, and if I hand over my body so that I may boast, but do not have love, I gain nothing



  10. What is Religion?
  11. the opium of the people
  12. I believe in a Creator. It makes sense given the intricate balance of the universe.

    Why, however, he would want feverish and serious devotion - is beyond me.
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