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  1. Originally posted by vanquish:The London riots are getting absolutely ridiculous, frankly they should have brought in the tear gas and water cannons already. People who behave like animals should be treated like animals.

    The other thing that annoys me is how the media makes absolutely no mention of how 95% of the rioters are black. It's political correctness gone mad.

    It would seem that the police are started to return order without the use of such methods. The streets of London are quiet tonight, most of the trouble seems to be happening in Manchester, Birmingham etc. on a much smaller scale. Tear gas and water cannons generally get used with large masses of people, this isn't a large scale protest a la Brixton in the '70s, this is small bands of looters which don't warrant it. And the fact that there's a large amount of black youths involved is neither here nor there. This isn't about race, it's not a political protest, there isn't any kind of cause uniting those involved.

    It's the inevitable conclusion of a lack of investment in the future of this country, especially for those in poor areas with no opportunity or hope who have been left to feel disenchanted and neglected, not to mention a lack of willingness by the state to actively engage and encourage young people to take an active interest in their own community and society, be it socially, politically and economically. Youth workers and action groups have been saying for months that something like this was on the cards because of cuts being made to their funding and the schemes they were involved with. I'm not condoning any of it, but there needs to be a united attempt to understand why this has happened, and to take active and progressive steps to stop the rot, but from the sounds of it, that's not going to happen because a lot of people seem to think it's clearcut, i.e. once the rioting has stopped, the problem's resolved.
  2. Guy from Birmingham (huge U2 fan, went to 40 concerts this tour) just said on Facebook that protesters started shooting at police.
  3. Originally posted by Yogi:Guy from Birmingham (huge U2 fan, went to 40 concerts this tour) just said on Facebook that protesters started shooting at police.

    Yeah, heard that too. World's going mad. Someone tweeted Matthew 24:6 earlier, struck a chord. It's weird in so far as it feels like some weird dystopian fantasy happening all around the country, and yet I'm sat here in my room in my small countryside village, and all is quiet. In fact, as I understand it, Norfolk is fairly quiet, not heard reports of any kind of unrest. Hopefully it stays that way and everything calms down soon enough.
  4. Originally posted by WojBhoy:[..]
    It would seem that the police are started to return order without the use of such methods. The streets of London are quiet tonight, most of the trouble seems to be happening in Manchester, Birmingham etc. on a much smaller scale. Tear gas and water cannons generally get used with large masses of people, this isn't a large scale protest a la Brixton in the '70s, this is small bands of looters which don't warrant it. And the fact that there's a large amount of black youths involved is neither here nor there. This isn't about race, it's not a political protest, there isn't any kind of cause uniting those involved.

    It's the inevitable conclusion of a lack of investment in the future of this country, especially for those in poor areas with no opportunity or hope who have been left to feel disenchanted and neglected, not to mention a lack of willingness by the state to actively engage and encourage young people to take an active interest in their own community and society, be it socially, politically and economically. Youth workers and action groups have been saying for months that something like this was on the cards because of cuts being made to their funding and the schemes they were involved with. I'm not condoning any of it, but there needs to be a united attempt to understand why this has happened, and to take active and progressive steps to stop the rot, but from the sounds of it, that's not going to happen because a lot of people seem to think it's clearcut, i.e. once the rioting has stopped, the problem's resolved.


    Well, if the riots are dying down then that's good. I disagree about the race thing, it should be mentioned - you can be sure if the Muslims started rioting it would be in the headlines, the communities involved should be held responsible for the actions of their youth.

    It is very much a product of hip hop culture which glorifies crime, defiance of police and the authority and values conspicous consumption.

    And anyway being poor is not an excuse to loot shoe stores for those hi top sneakers you can't afford, much less an invitation to go around causing wanton destruction.

    As for the lack of investment in a future, while due to the current economic climate jobs and opportunities are harder to come by in Britain, let's not forget that you still have an expansive social security program and this is nothing like being a youth in sub-saharan Africa or India or even countries like Greece and Albania.

    This behaviour is really the equivalent of children throwing a tantrum when they don't get what they want, it really is disgusting.





  5. Originally posted by vanquish:Well, if the riots are dying down then that's good. I disagree about the race thing, it should be mentioned - you can be sure if the Muslims started rioting it would be in the headlines, the communities involved should be held responsible for the actions of their youth.

    It is very much a product of hip hop culture which glorifies crime, defiance of police and the authority and values conspicous consumption.

    And anyway being poor is not an excuse to loot shoe stores for those hi top sneakers you can't afford, much less an invitation to go around causing wanton destruction.

    As for the lack of investment in a future, while due to the current economic climate jobs and opportunities are harder to come by in Britain, let's not forget that you still have an expansive social security program and this is nothing like being a youth in sub-saharan Africa or India or even countries like Greece and Albania.

    This behaviour is really the equivalent of children throwing a tantrum when they don't get what they want, it really is disgusting.

    It's not a race thing, the rioters are not all black, they're not all white, it's a mix. You only need to watch the coverage to see that. To be honest, I've seen more white youths than blacks, but that's just me and I've not spent my entire time watching the coverage because I want to sleep at some point.

    I agree, being poor isn't an excuse to loot - there are no excuses to loot - but the fact remains that in relation to the society we have, those youths are in the lowest place and are disenchanted and disengaged (for a host of reasons and with a host of issues that need to be addressed). And you say about social security etc., I grant you that we're better off than a lot of countries and I don't pretend it to be any other way, but that doesn't mean those in poverty here are no less deserving of help than those in sub-Saharan Africa. Clearly, the reaction to their situation is different, but a youth living in poverty is still a youth living in poverty, whether it's here or in the Sudan. Cuts are being made here that are severely affecting social welfare, and yes while we still have it, humans cannot accustom themselves to drastic change overnight, and that's what we're seeing here and frankly it's getting worse in comparison to what it was. The people who need the help most are not getting it as much as they need, nor on the level they need. That said, this is making it sound like some kind of political protest, which it clearly isn't. It is opportunistic and it needs to stop now, but it's a far more multi-layered issue than a group of young people thinking 'yeah why not, let's go ransack PC World'.

    Again, I don't condone anything the rioters are doing, I think it's shameful and shocking, but I'm not going to sit here, brand them as criminalistic thugs and think that's as far as it needs to go.
  6. Ok - so why have there been cuts to the social welfare programs in the UK?

    Though I still think the 'youth disenchantment' and 'inadequate welfare program' excuses are just a pretext offered by certain commentators and the rioters themselves have no such political ambitions and really just want an excuse to cause damage and loot property.
  7. Free iPads or Nike trousers are tempting, I'll admit it.
  9. The rioters have shed every last ounce of legitimacy that the original protest had, if they don't understand that this will just work against them, idiots.
  10. Originally posted by vanquish:Ok - so why have there been cuts to the social welfare programs in the UK?

    Though I still think the 'youth disenchantment' and 'inadequate welfare program' excuses are just a pretext offered by certain commentators and the rioters themselves have no such political ambitions and really just want an excuse to cause damage and loot property.

    The rioters clearly have no inkling because they don't appreciate the situation properly; but then again if you find yourself in the shit, you probably don't give a toss, which is the problem - they need to be encouraged to give a toss, otherwise there's no hope for any of us. I'm not saying it's a one-way street and everyone owes them the good life - you could easily argue and with reason that this is a result of the increasingly consumerist instant-gratification culture we live in, and the notion of everyone placing rights over responsibility. There have been interviews on the news with some rioters who are claiming they're getting their tax money back, fighting against the government (with one such interviewee saying, 'yeah, the government, whoever's in charge' which puts a very sad but fitting ring around the whole thing - some are trying to make a statement but clearly haven't got a bloody clue where to direct their anger). We have the social welfare programme (cuts or not) which will provide benefits to those who need it, but unfortunately that's become abused by people who would rather live on benefits because for some, it actually provides more than the low-end jobs they used to work it. I would argue that there's a decrease in the need to feel responsible for themselves AND towards each other (not the entire nation, certainly, but in a lot of areas of society), and therein lies one of the problems. Don't get me wrong, I don't disagree that there are a lot of people who've been involved who are being opportunistic in this situation, and have spotted an occasion to go and steal whatever they can simply because they can, but I think the issue is what has lead to them being at a place where they feel that's the only thing worth doing? Why has it come to that? Where their moral and social compass has become so warped, almost non-existent, that they don't care whether it's ok or not but just go and do it anyway?

    As for why have there been cuts? Well, to my mind, I don't know because I think it's stupid, but that's not much of an answer. Clearly, we find ourselves in a tough economic climate and some measures must be taken, but if you're going to make cuts, you need to make reinvestments in the private sector to allow for the kind of growth which will put us back on the up. The public sector won't make any money because it relies on the government budget which will only grow on the basis of the tax money they make from the majority of the population who work in the private sector, and so yes, things like social welfare reform will come under that bracket. However, not everything should be cut in a blanket move without putting money back into the economy, and making sweeping cuts to the private sector without investing what they do have increases the plight further. I believe that cuts without reinvesting the money that is available, i.e. tax, will only continue the decline further, and this is what I feel to be the problem with the Tory government - whenever they've been in power, they have come off the back of a Labour government who overspent, or at least much more so in recent years - especially under the Labour/Brown era. Labour have money to spend because the Tories saved it and spent virtually none, but because of that lack of investment in the economy, Labour have to go and spend it but don't know when they should stop, and so the vicious circle goes 'round. If a Labour government were to come in, spend but not overspend, they'd be laughing, at least in economic terms. So where social welfare is concerned, I don't see any legitimate reason other than simply getting the rough end of the deal from a government intent on cutting everything and not giving anything back.
  11. Whether I agree with you or not (which I do most of the times), Harry, it's always a pleasure reading such intricately elaborated written opinions.
  12. Originally posted by LikeASong:Whether I agree with you or not (which I do most of the times), Harry, it's always a pleasure reading such intricately elaborated written opinions.

    Cheers Sergio I don't usually get worked up enough to express my opinions, so when I do, I try to put as much as I can out there. Quite simply, I feel that we need as much public debate and discussion as can be had, and the best way for that is to get everyone to understand each other's position.
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