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Hoosier2012

Originally posted by Mr_Trek:[..]

And culture's probably one of the reasons for that.

QFT. Vermont is full of liberal hippies who don't want guns. There's not even a Wal-Mart in the state of Vermont. Culture plays a huge factor in that. New York City is vastly different.

And by the way, Indianapolis, where I'm from, has pretty lenient gun control laws, and was the murder capital of the country two years ago. It happens everywhere.

vanquish

14 years

Originally posted by WojBhoy:[..]
- you could easily argue and with reason that this is a result of the increasingly consumerist instant-gratification culture we live in, and the notion of everyone placing rights over responsibility. . Why has it come to that? Where their moral and social compass has become so warped, almost non-existent, that they don't care whether it's ok or not but just go and do it anyway?

I agree, it's due to the general slide of moral values into socio-cultural relativism and the embrace of self-gratification at the expense of all other things.

Poor parenting too - didn't some UK academic/MP in the past year or two talk about how the decline of the family was behind much of the social malaise in the UK?

WojBhoy

14 years

Originally posted by wtshnnfb01:I'm poor, and disenchanted. Does that give me an excuse to torch a cop car?

An excuse? No. I don't think any of this is excusable, nor are their socio-economic positions an excuse to do what they've done, but it provides a basis for understanding in trying to see what's behind all this. You may be poor and disenchanted, but having been reading your stuff on here for the last 3-4 years or however long I've been on here, I'd feel pretty safe in saying that you're far from disengaged - you actually take an interest in the politics and the social situation of your community and your country; I think it's pretty clear from the stuff we've been seeing, e.g. that interview that Andrew posted, that a lot of people who've been involved in the riots (which seem to have died down for tonight at least, been sporadically checking the news channels and haven't heard of anything) have little understanding or interest. They may be finding themselves in a place of anger and disenchantment but they don't even know who to constructively channel it against as a manner of protest or to encourage positive social change, because they just don't care - it's brutally nihilistic, and what's sad is that they don't even appreciate it. Like I said earlier, they clearly don't understand that they're just shitting on their own doorstep and destroying their own local communities. It's not even a protest (and believe me, I've come across people contextualising it as such), it's just mindless vandalism. When I say 'just', I don't mean to suggest that I'm playing it down - I'm all too aware that people have died during these riots, in attempts to protect their property and livelihoods, there will be hundreds of people who will have no livelihoods to speak of or houses to live in when the initial unrest has been resolved - when I say just, I mean to say that it cannot be construed as anything other than mindless vandalism of a great severity.

Originally posted by wtshnnfb01:He is pretty good at making a point.

Lol, tah *doffs cap*

Originally posted by vanquish:I agree, it's due to the general slide of moral values into socio-cultural relativism and the embrace of self-gratification at the expense of all other things.

Poor parenting too - didn't some UK academic/MP in the past year or two talk about how the decline of the family was behind much of the social malaise in the UK?

It's quite possible. I'm very much an advocate of the social welfare programme that's been in place for however long it has, and still think it's necessary because there are plenty of families around the country trying to get themselves out of a rut but need support. Unfortunately, there are also those who have clearly abused the system to get benefits without the need to try and get to a place where they no longer need them because someone claiming a large percentage of the various benefits available will end up with a much better income (from said benefits) than some people earning wages at the low-end of the spectrum, e.g. c. £10-15k per annum. The system needs reworking, not abolishing, in my view. Re. moral values, I hear what you say - not quite made my mind up on that, but like I say, the growth in emphasis of rights over responsibilities is clearly a major issue. It's a fairly metaphysical and intellectual point, but I do really think that the overwhelming cynicism in not only the UK but the Western world in general is a real issue, although I have no idea how we'd change that. Social bonds of trust and the like have deteriorated for a plethora of reason, I think that much is clear, but as I say, how that can be reversed? I'm stumped. I'd love to do something to change it though. I always maintain that I want to be able to do something around the world to make it a better place, and maybe that's one thing to work on. Yeah, a big dream that might seem farfetched and out of reach, but as a certain fellow with a big mouth once said, 'dream out loud'.

vanquish

14 years

I tend to agree with this guy:
http://www.theaustralian.com.au/news/opinion/european-model-a-wretched-failure/story-e6frg6zo-1226112635531

LikeASong

14 years

Prime Minister David Cameron has addressed MPs after recalling Parliament for the day in the wake of looting and violence in English cities. Here is his statement in full:

With permission, I would like to make a statement.

First, let me thank the Speaker and Honourable Members for returning.

When there are important events in our country, it is right that Parliament is recalled and that we show a united front.

I'm grateful to the Leader of the Opposition for the constructive approach that he has taken over the past few days.

I have spoken with many of the members whose constituencies have been affected - and I would like to pay tribute to the Member for Tottenham for his powerful words and unstinting work over recent days.

What we have seen on the streets of London and in other cities across our country is completely unacceptable and I am sure the whole House will join me in condemning it.

Keeping people safe is the first duty of government.

The whole country has been shocked by the most appalling scenes of people looting, violence, vandalising and thieving.

It is criminality pure and simple. And there is absolutely no excuse for it.

We have seen houses, offices and shops raided and torched, police officers assaulted and fire crews attacked as they try to put out fires, people robbing others while they lie injured and bleeding in the street, and even three innocent people being deliberately run over and killed in Birmingham.

Mr Speaker, we will not put up with this in our country.

We will not allow a culture of fear to exist on our streets.

And we will do whatever it takes to restore law and order and to rebuild our communities.

First, let us be clear about the sequence of events.

A week ago today, a 29 year old man named Mark Duggan was shot dead by the police in Tottenham.

Clearly there are questions that must be answered and I can assure the House that this is being investigated thoroughly and independently by the IPCC.

We must get to the bottom of exactly what happened. And we will.

Mr Speaker, initially there were some peaceful demonstrations following Mark Duggan's death and understandably and appropriately the police were cautious about how they dealt with this.

However, this was then used as an excuse by opportunist thugs in gangs, first in Tottenham itself, then across London and then in other cities.

It is completely wrong to say there is any justifiable causal link.

It is simply preposterous for anyone to suggest that people looting in Tottenham at the weekend, still less three days later Salford, were in any way doing so because of the death of Mark Duggan.

The young people stealing flat screen televisions and burning shops that was not about politics or protest, it was about theft.

The police faced lawbreaking on the streets on a scale not seen for decades.

Mr Speaker, in recent days individual police officers have shown incredible bravery and have worked in some cases around the clock without a break

They deserve our support and our thanks.

But what became increasingly clear earlier this week was that there were simply far too few police were deployed onto the streets. And the tactics they were using weren't working.

Police chiefs have been frank with me about why this happened.

Initially the police treated the situation too much as a public order issue - rather than essentially one of crime.

The truth is that the police have been facing a new and unique challenge with different people doing the same thing - basically looting - in different places all at the same time.

Mr Speaker, to respond to this situation, we are acting decisively to restore order on our streets, to support the victims of this terrible violence and to look at the deeper problems that have led to such a hard core of young people to decide to carry out such appalling criminality.

Let me take each in turn.

First, restoring order.

Following the meetings of COBRA which I chaired on Tuesday, and Wednesday and again this morning, we have taken decisive action to help ensure more robust and more effective policing.

Because of decisions taken by Deputy Chief Commissioner, Tim Godwin, there are now more police on the streets, more people arrested and more criminals being prosecuted.

The Met Police increased the number of police deployed on the streets of London from 6,000 to almost 16,000 officers. And this number will remain through the weekend.

We have also seen large increases in deployments of officers in other affected areas.

Leave in affected forces has been cancelled.

Police officers have been bussed from forces across the country to areas of greatest need.

And many businesses also quite rightly released special constables to help and they performed magnificently as well.

More than 1,200 people have now been arrested across the country.

We are making technology work for us, by capturing the images of the perpetrators on CCTV - so even if they haven't yet been arrested, their faces are known and they will not escape the law.

And as I said yesterday, no phoney human rights concerns about publishing these photographs will get in the way of bringing these criminals to justice.

Anyone charged with violent disorder and other serious offences should expect to be remanded in custody not let back on the streets and anyone convicted should expect to go to jail.

Courts in London, Manchester and the West Midlands have been sitting through the night - and will do so for as long as necessary.

Magistrates courts have proved effective in ensuring swift justice. The Crown courts are now starting to deal with the most serious cases. We are keeping under constant review whether the courts have the sentencing powers they need and we'll act if necessary.

As a result of the robust and uncompromising measures have been taken, good progress is being made in restoring order to the streets of London and other cities across our country.

As I have made clear, nothing should be off the table. Every contingency is being looked at.

The police are already authorised to use baton rounds.

And, as I said yesterday, while they would not be appropriate now, we do have in place contingency plans for water cannon to be available at 24 hours notice.

Some people have raised the issue of the Army.

The Acting Commissioner of the Metropolitan Police said to me that he would rather be the last man left in Scotland Yard with all his management team out on the streets before he asked for the army.

That is the right attitude and one I share. But it is my responsibility to make sure that every contingency is looked at - including whether there are tasks that the army could undertake that would free up more police for the front line.

Mr Speaker, everyone watching these horrific actions will be stuck by how they were organised via social media.

Free flow of information can be used for good. But it can also be used for ill.

And when people are using social media for violence we need to stop them.

So we are working with the Police, the intelligence services and industry to look at whether it would be right to stop people communicating via these websites and services when we know they are plotting violence, disorder and criminality.

I have also asked the police if they need any other new powers.

Specifically on facemasks, currently they can only remove these in a specific geographical location and for a limited time.

So I can announce today that we are going to give the police the discretion to remove face coverings under any circumstances where there is reasonable suspicion that they are related to criminal activity.

And on dealing with crowds, we are also looking at the use of existing dispersal powers and whether any wider power of curfew is necessary.

Mr Speaker, whenever the police face a new threat - they must have the freedom and the confidence to change tactics. This government will make sure they always have that.

The fight back has well and truly begun.

But there will be no complacency. And we will not stop until this mindless violence and thuggery is defeated and law and order is fully restored on all our streets.

Let me turn to the innocent victims.

No-one will forget the images of the woman jumping from a burning building or the furniture shop that had survived the blitz now tragically burnt to the ground.

And everyone will have been impressed by the brave words of Tariq Jahan, a father in Birmingham whose son was so brutally and tragically run over and killed.

I give the people affected this promise:

We will help you repair the damage, get your businesses back up and running; and support your communities.

Let me take each of these in turn.

On repairing the damages, I can confirm that any individual, homeowner or business that has suffered damage to or loss of their buildings or property as a result of rioting, can seek compensation under the Riot Damages Act, even if uninsured.

The government will ensure the police have the funds they need to meet the cost of any legitimate claims.

And whereas normally claims must be received within 14 days, we will extend the period to 42 days.

The Association of British Insurers have said they expect the industry to be paying out in excess of £200 million.

And they have assured us that claims will continue to be dealt with as quickly and constructively as possible.

On supporting businesses, we are today setting up a new £20 million high street support scheme to help affected businesses get back up and running quickly.

And to minimise the costs facing businesses, the government will enable local authorities to grant business rate relief, by funding at least three quarters of their costs.

We will defer tax payments for businesses in greatest need, through Time to Pay and other practical support.

And for houses and businesses that have been the most badly damaged we have instructed the valuation office to immediately stop liability for council tax and business rates.

A specific point was raised with me in Wolverhampton yesterday, that planning regulations make it difficult for shops to put up protective shutters.

We will weed out unnecessary planning regulations to ensure that businesses can get back on their feet and feel secure as quickly as possible.

On supporting local communities, I can confirm that the Bellwin Scheme to support Local Authorities will be operational.

However to ensure urgent funding is immediately available we are today establishing a new £10 million Recovery Scheme to provide additional support to councils in making areas safe, clean and clear again.

And the government will also meet the immediate costs of emergency accommodation for families made homeless by these disturbances.

The Secretary of States for Communities and Local Government and Business have made available to the House details of all these schemes today.

Of course the situation continues to evolve and we will keep any additional support under close review.

Finally, Mr Speaker, let me turn to the deeper problems.

Responsibility for crime always lies with the criminal. But crime has a context. And we must not shy away from it.

I have said before that there is a major problem in our society with children growing up not knowing the difference between right and wrong.

This is not about poverty, it's about culture. A culture that glorifies violence, shows disrespect to authority, and says everything about rights but nothing about responsibilities.

In too many cases, the parents of these children - if they are still around - don't care where their children are or who they are with, let alone what they are doing.

The potential consequences of neglect and immorality on this scale have been clear for too long, without enough action being taken.

As I said yesterday, there is no one step that can be taken.

But we need a benefit system that rewards work and that is on the side of families.

We need more discipline in our schools.

We need action to deal with the most disruptive families.

And we need a criminal justice system that scores a clear and heavy line between right and wrong.

In short, all the action necessary to help mend our broken society.

At the heart of all the violence sits the issue of the street gangs. Territorial, hierarchical and incredibly violent, they are mostly composed of young boys, mainly from dysfunctional homes.

They earn money through crime, particularly drugs and are bound together by an imposed loyalty to an authoritarian gang leader.

They have blighted life on their estates with gang on gang murders and unprovoked attacks on innocent bystanders.

In the last few days there is some evidence that they have been behind the coordination of the attacks on the Police and the looting that has followed.

I want us to use the record of success against gangs some cities like Boston in the USA and indeed the Strathclyde police in Scotland - who have done this by engaging the Police, the voluntary sector and local government. I want this to be a national priority.

We have already introduced gang injunctions and I can announce today that we are going to use them across the whole country for children and for adults.

There are also further sanctions available beyond the criminal justice system.

Local authorities and landlords already have tough powers to evict the perpetrators from social housing.

Some local authorities are already doing this. I want to see others follow their lead and we will consider whether these powers need to be strengthened further.

Mr Speaker, I have asked the Home Secretary to work with the Secretary of State for Work and Pensions and other Cabinet Colleagues on a cross-government programme of action to deal with this gang culture, and report to Parliament in October.

I also believe we should be looking beyond our shores to learn the lessons from others who have faced similar problems.

That is why I will be discussing how we can go further in getting to grips with gangs with people like Bill Bratton, former Commissioner of Police in New York and Los Angeles.

Of course, the problem is not just gangs. There were people who saw shop windows smashed and who thought they could just steal and it would be ok.

It's not ok.

And these people will face the full consequences of their actions.

Mr Speaker, in the past few days we have seen a range of emotions sweep this country: anger, fear, frustration, despair, sadness - and finally a determined resolve that we will not let a violent few beat us.

We saw this resolve in the people who gathered in Clapham, in Manchester, in Wolverhampton with brooms to clean up the streets.

We saw it in those who patrolled the roads in Enfield through the night to deter rioters.

We saw it in the hundreds of people who stood guard outside Southall Temple, protecting it from vandalism.

This is a time for our country to pull together.

To the law abiding people who play by the rules, and who are the overwhelming majority in our country, I say the fightback has begun, we will protect you, if you've had your livelihood and property damaged, we will compensate you. We are on your side.

And to the lawless minority, the criminals who've taken what they can get. I say this: We will track you down, we will find you, we will charge you, we will punish you. You will pay for what you have done.

We need to show the world, which has looked on frankly appalled, that the perpetrators of the violence we have seen on our streets are not in any way representative of our country - nor of our young people.

We need to show them that we will address our broken society, we will restore a sense of stronger sense of morality and responsibility - in every town, in every street and in every estate.

And a year away from the Olympics, we need to show them the Britain that doesn't destroy, but that builds; that doesn't give up but stands up; that doesn't look back, but always forwards.

And I commend this statement to the House.

wtshnnfb01

14 years