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  1. Originally posted by Ali709:Seems we agree on everything then mark.

    [..]

    I believe that religion is used (abused actually) by politicians as a means to force people in a certain direction or to ....let's say control their mind, shut them up.
    But the whole thing differs from country to country and politician to politician. In our country, it's used A LOT...politicians lose their jobs over a not so religiously correct comment...who emphasizes that comment? The opposition...this is just one example.


    Finally we are discussing religion in the perspective of politics, not religion itself.
  2. Originally posted by vanquish:Firstly the commandment is "thou shalt not kill" not thou shalt not murder.
    [..]

    But yes killing in defense of yourself or someone else doesn't break the above commandment.

    Secondly, the Jews,Christians and Muslims all have the same God, the God of Abraham. (hence the term Abrahamic religion). They have different names & beliefs, but it is essentially the same God. Their views on Jesus don't change this fact. It's like how different people can have different views of the same person.

    Thirdly if you consider the New Testament and Jesus to be a major part of your faith, you might want to agree with his teachings... I can't recall him being a supporter of the death penalty and killing.




    Exodus 21:12-25
    12 “He who strikes a man so that he dies shall surely be put to death. 13 However, if he did not lie in wait, but God delivered him into his hand, then I will appoint for you a place where he may flee.
    14 “But if a man acts with premeditation against his neighbor, to kill him by treachery, you shall take him from My altar, that he may die.
    15 “And he who strikes his father or his mother shall surely be put to death.
    16 “He who kidnaps a man and sells him, or if he is found in his hand, shall surely be put to death.
    17 “And he who curses his father or his mother shall surely be put to death.
    18 “If men contend with each other, and one strikes the other with a stone or with his fist, and he does not die but is confined to his bed, 19 if he rises again and walks about outside with his staff, then he who struck him shall be acquitted. He shall only pay for the loss of his time, and shall provide for him to be thoroughly healed.
    20 “And if a man beats his male or female servant with a rod, so that he dies under his hand, he shall surely be punished. 21 Notwithstanding, if he remains alive a day or two, he shall not be punished; for he is his property.
    22 “If men fight, and hurt a woman with child, so that she gives birth prematurely, yet no harm follows, he shall surely be punished accordingly as the woman’s husband imposes on him; and he shall pay as the judges determine. 23 But if any harm follows, then you shall give life for life, 24 eye for eye, tooth for tooth, hand for hand, foot for foot, 25 burn for burn, wound for wound, stripe for stripe.

    They all call Him the God of Abraham, but when they disagree on who that God is, it is essential. Different views of the same person? Actually its more like the same views on different people. (One says it about Jesus, the other two say not Jesus, therefore the same view about different person.....)

    As far as the New Testament, show me one place where Jesus did not support the death penalty as punishment for murder.....
  3. Originally posted by Guenther:[..]



    As far as the New Testament, show me one place where Jesus did not support the death penalty as punishment for murder.....


    What do you say to these:

    "You have heard that it was said, 'An eye for an eye and a tooth for a tooth.' But I tell you do not resist an evil person. Whoever slaps you on your right cheek, turn the other to him also." Matthew 5:38-39

    and

    "But Jesus went to the Mount of Olives. At dawn he appeared again in the temple courts, where all the people gathered around him, and he sat down to teach them. The teachers of the law and the Pharisees brought in a woman caught in adultery. They made her stand before the group and said to Jesus, "Teacher, this woman was caught in the act of adultery. In the Law Moses commanded us to stone such women. Now what do you say?" They were using this question as a trap, in order to have a basis for accusing him.

    But Jesus bent down and started to write on the ground with his finger. When they kept on questioning him, he straightened up and said to them, "If any one of you is without sin, let him be the first to throw a stone at her." Again he stooped down and wrote on the ground.

    At this, those who heard began to go away one at a time, the older ones first, until only Jesus was left, with the woman still standing there. Jesus straightened up and asked her, "Woman, where are they? Has no one condemned you?"

    "No one, sir," she said.

    "Then neither do I condemn you," Jesus declared. "Go now and leave your life of sin."
  4. Originally posted by markp91:lol...
    I don't believe in a religion which keeps telling that we were from Adam & Eva and which says that sex is for devil people.



    Devil people? I'm gonna have to agree with Ali - I've neverheard of that from any religion or faith....


  5. every faith can be manipulated - its no different than any other.....
  6. Originally posted by haytrain:[..]

    What do you say to these:

    "You have heard that it was said, 'An eye for an eye and a tooth for a tooth.' But I tell you do not resist an evil person. Whoever slaps you on your right cheek, turn the other to him also." Matthew 5:38-39

    and

    "But Jesus went to the Mount of Olives. At dawn he appeared again in the temple courts, where all the people gathered around him, and he sat down to teach them. The teachers of the law and the Pharisees brought in a woman caught in adultery. They made her stand before the group and said to Jesus, "Teacher, this woman was caught in the act of adultery. In the Law Moses commanded us to stone such women. Now what do you say?" They were using this question as a trap, in order to have a basis for accusing him.

    But Jesus bent down and started to write on the ground with his finger. When they kept on questioning him, he straightened up and said to them, "If any one of you is without sin, let him be the first to throw a stone at her." Again he stooped down and wrote on the ground.

    At this, those who heard began to go away one at a time, the older ones first, until only Jesus was left, with the woman still standing there. Jesus straightened up and asked her, "Woman, where are they? Has no one condemned you?"

    "No one, sir," she said.

    "Then neither do I condemn you," Jesus declared. "Go now and leave your life of sin."

    One is about revenge, the other is about adultery. Neither have anything to do with death penalty for murder....







  7. Since when can't it be about something more? I think there are multiple explanations for the stories of the bible. It's not like every story has one explanation...


  8. Didn't Jesus stop Peter from killing the High Priest servants who came to arrest Jesus, the whole "those who live by the sword, die by the sword' thing.

    And on the cross didn't he say "Father forgive them, they do not know what they are doing"?

    Along with the 'let he who is without sin cast the first stone' story mentioned above, Jesus rewrote the rules of Exodus, which may have been manipulated in the first place by the high priests and such. If you hold the Old Testament with such high regard, perhaps you should convert to Judaism.

    Or perhaps (seeing your stance on the death penalty) maybe you think the Jews should be held responsible for Jesus's death?

  9. But in both cases, Jesus prevented people from using death, so it would be logical to assume that he didn't approve of killing, just as the Ten Commandments preached (and from my understanding, the New Testament was brought in to replace the Old Testament as the new form/evolution of the former text in accordance with the change in teachings brought about by Jesus etc.?). As far as the death penalty goes, I'm wholeheartedly against it, end of. Killing creates discord, more killing emphasises that, nothing can be gained by it.


  10. Forgive me, I misread your original post. I didn't realize that you'd asked specifically as punishment in response to murder.

    That being said, I don't think you can limit those passages to being just about revenge and adultery. Maybe a bit broader terms that could be applied to those verses are "forgiveness" and "passing judging on others," and one could make the argument that they're applicable to Jesus' thoughts on the death penalty (as punishment for murder or otherwise). In order to sentence someone to death, someone's essentially judging someone else and not offering forgiveness.
  11. Originally posted by haytrain:[..]

    Forgive me, I misread your original post. I didn't realize that you'd asked specifically as punishment in response to murder.

    That being said, I don't think you can limit those passages to being just about revenge and adultery. Maybe a bit broader terms that could be applied to those verses are "forgiveness" and "passing judging on others," and one could make the argument that they're applicable to Jesus' thoughts on the death penalty (as punishment for murder or otherwise). In order to sentence someone to death, someone's essentially judging someone else and not offering forgiveness.


    hmm...in my belief prophets (for me this would include JC as well) are showing us the...I'm trying to translate something here...the best way of obeying God, they show how a perfect human would act. It's not required, it's recommended. With that in mind, JC's actions described above are to try to persuade us to forgive and have mercy.

    This goes with the verse in the Quran as well, as I said, the verse after the one allowing death penalty for murder is asking people to forgive and have mercy upon the murderer and making it clear that it is their right to want the penalty, but they are much more blessed and loved by God if they forgive.
  12. Glory, glory to Velvet Revolution!
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