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  1. Since the content of a recent thread went sideways (partly because of me) and this topic of 'selling recordings' was brought up it's probably time to have a proper thread about that.


    Obviously two types of sellers happen to exist:
    - the one kind that is selling recordings to bootlegging companies.
    - the one kind that is selling recordings on his own.

    The first kind have in the past been a source of new recordings, but not quite in the u2 community. For example all the new Led Zeppelin soundboard surface via a japanese bootleg company. It has allowed some recordings to get out of the closets but still some people made enormous amounts of money because of that, while most of the time it was not the supplier but the actual bootleggers who made most of the money. Compensation has ben ranging from money to several copies of the resulting bootleg, most of the time for a value between 500 and 1000$.

    And then we have the second kind, who makes homemade cd-r/dvd-r/bd-r of their source and sells them via ebay, via etsy or via some forums for example. A good example of that would be Stanislas, a french guy that you can find in the queues outside venues in Paris trying to sell his recordings before they are even made. Some also decide to sell their mix/matrix/multicam as for example Oli66, present on this very forum, who releases for free his dvd version but sells his hd versions for a profit.


    Some will say that those person have to be compensated for their work, for their gear, or even for their time. Some will say that all they are doing is making money off of other people's work (the artists). What is your opinion about all that ?
  2. Few more examples of selling/compensation could be a taper getting paid to record a show (maybe a show they wouldn't have attended) or even a taper getting free tickets to record a show. I don't have an issue with either of these, as long no one is selling the recording after the fact.

    I know someone who bought/liberated a very expensive Pro-Shot. I helped him make some DVDs (four or five? Not 50) that he planned on selling to re-coup his money. For that service, I got a copy of the disc. Shady? Yea, kinda. At the end of the day, he was trying to cover his costs, and the folks that bought the discs were happy. And everyone was happy when a little while later, one of the people basically "let it out" and everyone got it free.

    I've been sold tickets at Face Value, cause I tape, when those tickets were worth much more. Is that a form of "selling" similar to free tickets or getting paid to tape?

    And our favorite friend, who keeps reminding people he's never sold U2, seemingly admits to offering the "DVD" of a particular show for free. Which basically admits he plans on selling the Blu-Ray just like he always does.

    Sellers often try ANYTHING to justify or minimize what they do. "No one would download a Blu-Ray", "I'm offering a service and not really making money"...Guess what? Release the version that you release, and don't worry about those that don't know how to burn a disc, or can't torrent or whatnot. Selling it like a product, after the fact. SUCKS.

    Anyway, this won't end well...
  3. You have to factor in the mentality of the person buying as well. Would I buy a nicely packaged CD of a show I went to? Yea. It's a nicer souvenir than a tshirt in my opinion. The same with a DVD or blu Ray. Would I pay a few pounds for a killer multicam? Probably. Where there is someone willing to pay then there is someone willing to sell.

    Sites like here and others negate the need for people to pay but some people will still buy material if they perceive some sort of value. For me the value can be a nice souvenir of a show or avoiding the hassle of having to rip CDs or print artwork etc myself.

    I'll leave the morals and ethics of the taper to the individual themselves.
  4. Few more examples of selling/compensation could be a taper getting paid to record a show (maybe a show they wouldn't have attended) or even a taper getting free tickets to record a show. I don't have an issue with either of these, as long no one is selling the recording after the fact.


    This is the very only case I morally consider as acceptable. The rest is bullshit. Taping is a hobby and it should be treated as that. One, by definition, doesn't make money out of his hobbies. Getting free tickets for exercicing your hobby -and making some/lots of people happy in the meanwhile- is acceptable, while making actual profit (or the so-called "covering expenses") out of it isn't.


  5. The problem with that is the sellers/bootlegers put ALL the tapers into a bucket of "crap". If I'm caught, many times they think "Seller"...

    I completely agree with the souvenir aspect, that is the main reason I tape! However if the BAND is the one selling, I am certainly buying that and support that. Buying a multicam off a editor? No thanks.
  6. Originally posted by LikeASong:Few more examples of selling/compensation could be a taper getting paid to record a show (maybe a show they wouldn't have attended) or even a taper getting free tickets to record a show. I don't have an issue with either of these, as long no one is selling the recording after the fact.


    This is the very only case I morally consider as acceptable. The rest is bullshit. Taping is a hobby and it should be treated as that. One, by definition, doesn't make money out of his hobbies. Getting free tickets for exercicing your hobby -and making some/lots of people happy in the meanwhile- is acceptable, while making actual profit (or the so-called "covering expenses") out of it isn't.
    I have no issues with that line of thinking. Just as I mentioned, I do think there is grey area. Even accepting free tickets (which I've done) to tape is "getting paid" in a way.
  7. Originally posted by Chrisedge:[..]


    The problem with that is the sellers/bootlegers put ALL the tapers into a bucket of "crap". If I'm caught, many times they think "Seller"...

    I completely agree with the souvenir aspect, that is the main reason I tape! However if the BAND is the one selling, I am certainly buying that and support that. Buying a multicam off a editor? No thanks.
    If the band isn't selling then someone else will. The prices of some of the bootlegs you see on eBay are hilarious. Even pricier tha. What you would pay for an official release. Never worked that out.
  8. Originally posted by germcevoy:[..]
    If the band isn't selling then someone else will. The prices of some of the bootlegs you see on eBay are hilarious. Even pricier tha. What you would pay for an official release. Never worked that out.
    Doesn't make it right though. And I've paid between $9.99 (Metallica and Pixies) to $35 (Depeche Mode) for "Official Bootlegs" of the shows I attended (and prices in between)
  9. Originally posted by Chrisedge:[..]
    Doesn't make it right though. And I've paid between $9.99 (Metallica and Pixies) to $35 (Depeche Mode) for "Official Bootlegs" of the shows I attended (and prices in between)
    I agree it doesn't make it right but that doesn't stop it. There's a market there that the band don't see potential in but some hobbyist bootlegger does.

    How common is it for a taper to sell their own stuff? Most recordings I see for sale are clearly downloaded from here by a third party who then sells on eBay.
  10. Originally posted by LikeASong:Getting free tickets for exercicing your hobby -and making some/lots of people happy in the meanwhile- is acceptable, while making actual profit (or the so-called "covering expenses") out of it isn't.


    I've already sent someone tape a show for me, i paid for his gas, his hotel accomodations , his meals, his tickets, and enough money to buy a few beers after the show, i don't think there's a problem with that as it's not done in the purpose of making money, contrary to people selling recordings.

    I also already was 'paid' in beers after a show i recorded by friends who knew they would get the recording after anyway, is that a payment ? i don't think so.

    Yet i dispise those who want to sell recordings (or do sell some) because they get us (tapers) a bad name. When i was caught videotaping Muse in 2006 the girl i was brought to backstage said to me "you're stealing the artist", probably because they knews recordings sometimes ends up on the black market ...
  11. I think there is a big difference in getting "support" (paid/tickets/etc...) BEFORE a show, since there is no guarantee that I will end up with a recording, than simply me selling a Vancouver DVD 2 weeks after the show. While both are getting paid, it's a bit different.
  12. Interesting topic. Though I think if there is any conclusion that could be drawn from the outcome of this topic (if you take the amount of pro or con feedbacks as conclusion) it can't be seen representative. Knowing where this is going all I can say is that I can name you a hundred times more people (with quotes) who are in favour of paying for a high quality bootlegs.
    This place here is just the wrong place for this kind of discussion. But then again, I think any place is. You have to talk to "real people" about these matters. Also it became a common thing that only the people speak up who have a negative opinion and negative in this case comes from hate and unhappiness and jealousness and that often comes from the fact that the people can't get hands on all recordings out there. For free.
    95 percent of all the downloaders don't even leave a "thank you" in written form. I even know people who were upset when I uploaded shows that required double layer dvd and blu-ray discs. A lot of people are just...cheap.
    But maybe I am wrong? Even on the shittiest music message board I know of over 80 percent were in favour of that dvddubbingguy (a poll showed).

    Here is a little background on me and where my way of thinking comes from (besides the fact that I believe that you give something in return for things you take):
    I started buying bootlegs in the early 90's. I always loved to have nice sounding bootlegs with nice covers and disc labels.
    Man were they expensive! I paid $ 120 for my first bootleg ("In the midnight hour" - a 4CD set - bought it from a private person who sold his own copy - propably because he already had the upgrade back then). The usual price I paid for a 3 disc Crystal Cat title was $ 75.
    Back then I still went to school and had virtually no money. My parents were always indebted. They could not even pay for a medical treatment I badly needed back then. I had to pay it on my own as a poor student. In the years to come my parents made debts on my name somewhere in the range of 30-40k. But that is another story...
    How to buy the things a fanboy like me would like to have? I went to school, gave tennis lessons and had a life but of course, I did not make enough money for life, bootlegs and going to concerts.
    Easy solution: I sold CDR copies of the shows I bought myself. My friends were eager to have the music but didn't care for the discs being silver discs so they chipped in. I went to the copy store and made copies of the artwork. In the time I had to learn for school I was able to copy some CDs on the side.
    Did I stop once my own "costs" for buying the bootlegs were covered? No. I must admit I got "greedy" and sold more. This way I was able to buy more bootlegs (even the ones nobody wanted to have and I made no copies of) and in 1999 a student like me with no money from my parents was able to attend 6 Bruce Springsteen and the E Street Band shows.
    What a year! I met so many nice people and friendships started which last until this day. Everybody knew I was selling CDR copies. Everybody was fine with it. Still is. Back then THE place for information on Springsteen bootlegs ("brucelegs" by Rich Breton" ) listed CDR sellers of bootlegs. It was a common thing. Fanclubs like Badlands still as of today sell bootlegs.
    The Backstreets fanclub sold VHS tapes (New Jersey tracks, Southern tracks, American tracks, European tracks) for A LOT of money. Maybe they even sold CDs. I don't know. I only bought all the videos they had for sale.
    Everybody was selling. Many are still doing so today. So what?

    One day I sold 90 percent of all my silver bootlegs. Man, what was I thinking and hearing back then or NOT hearing? Most of the bootlegs sound like shit and are just stressful and painful for the ears and brain.
    I saw no point in owning these anymore. There was hardly a silver bootleg from the artists I listen to that was an exclusive and had sound quality I was fond of. So I sold them.
    Do I still buy bootlegs today? Yes, if I have heard them before and like the sound and know that they have nice artwork and are exclusive recordings. I don't buy bootlegs which are sourced from recordings I could download for free and now are pressed on silver discs and messed with sound wise.
    99 percent of all remasters sound like crap. No matter if we are talking about official releases remastered by professionals or any given bootlegs that were tempered with by any members of our community.

    Let's take hoserama's best IEM/AUD matrixes he did. Why doesn't he share more? IF and I am saying IF the reason would be not enough time on his hands that it would take to do all the mastering and that it would mean he would need to take time of his real life job and that would mean he'd need a financial compensation to do so, well then...would I as a fan pay be willing to compensate him for his time of his real job and master some U2 shows? Hell yeah!! And I would not only be willing to, no, I'd love to! That would mean more music for everyone. If editing U2 shows would be something hoserama enjoys and he could spend more time on this and less on his real job (which might be bad and not fullfilling as in most people's cases but knowing he is a sound pro I know he already has a good job for him so maybe that wouldn't be an argument but it would be for anyone who enjoys his hobby more than his job) then we are talking about a no-brainer here, no?

    Ethics? I call it personal interests. MY personal interests. And most propably yours, too. There's no harm done to anyone by the so called bootleggers. Not even the artists are harmed. We are talking about products here that are not released in any official form. Huge difference compared to watching a pirated movieor albums you download. That harms the industry and everybody is propably guilty here.
    Quite a few people follow my videos and music recommendations and now go see shows and buy records from artists they haven't heard of before. I even met a guy who got into Springsteen because of my videos. That means I even produce more income for the artists. Sure, some people favor some of my videos over official releases and some would maybe not even buy Leeds if it was officially released because of my fantastic video but that scenario is still unlikely to happen.

    Chipping in on taper's gears, compensating them for their time, etc. could in some cases mean more music for everyone. Me, I can spend more time this way on mixing videos. I was able to release dozens of full show multicams this way. Without compensation I might have been able to release one or two only. Judging from my everyday's inbox and people asking me "do you do this show?", "when will that show be ready" etc. I can only sence that I "chose" a good way. When it comes to the feedback I receive for my work then I know for sure that what I do is good!
    So, who would be willing to or even WANT to pay hoserama to mix more recordings and get them out? Me me me! You you you. If it's the same as in the "other fan scene" with my videos then I know for sure that many people could be counted in.
    I am sure even in this community where everything is for free and most people take everything as granted and even demand for tapers uploading their recordings I think it is pretty safe to say that quite a few people would love to pay for more quality output of their favourite band, too.
    I already have proof! Dozens of fans told me that they would love to pay me for making the Cologne multicam videos. They understand that this is time consuming and needs compensation. They WANT to compensate me for doing so.

    Even though at this very moment there are mostly only people speaking up here who demand everything for free and call selling recordings "unethical" I am sure by releasing over 15 full show high quality videos of U2 like I did with Bruce Springsteen even most of those people would appreciate what I do and settle with the fact that only the dvds are for free and would mind their own business when it comes to my blu-rays...

    Today I only sell videos I produced myself. I advice everybody to download everything else from dime or Jungleland or aks in forums for freebies or copies for b+p (very unlikely to happen these days though that someone makes a copy for free or b+p!)
    I release virtually all of my shows on dvd for free. All of my recordings I put out there. If I decide to not do a multicam of a show and another in my opinion talented editor asks me for my footage: I hand it out.

    Ethics? I have a different opinion about ethics. You tape shows and you don't upload them, even worse you brag about the recordings you did but you don't share them and on the other hand you download tons of shows from other tapers. That's wrong in my books.

    The worst guy I propably ever came across (not directly! only through another person) is a U2 fan (IEM taper) who also went so some Springsteen shows and recorded them. He sold his Kilkenny recordings to Godfather. One show never saw the light of day and the other one was poorly mastered by Godfather. Two tapes waisted.
    But that is a common thing. Now comes the BAD part: The taper recorded the Njimegen show, too. Back then I knew a man whose last show together with his wife was the Njimegen show. He was diagnosed with cancer some months before the show and they both knew it would be their last Springsteen concert together.
    He died some months after the show. They both wished to have a recording of that show. To listen to it again at home and for the wife to have some memories preserved after her husband's death.
    I asked the person who was in contact with the taper to forward this request. Not making a copy of a recording to a dying person? A couple who would never make a copy of the recording? C'mon! The taper did not even write back.
    That was unethical. And so was it from my contact to not tell that person. To not express your opinion about this is in my opinion not only weak but really a lack of character and ethics.

    Another thing: Guess how many people told me they never received a copy of other people's multicams where they provided footage for? Even the multicam editors who always say everything has to be for free forget about the people who cannot download and burn. They take their footage but don't even send them copies.
    I do so. You send me very little footage for a 3+ hour show and that entitles you to have a copy of the full film in return for very little money that barely covers the costs for blanks, prints, postage, package.
    Given the fact that for some films of mine over 20 tapers sent me their recordings it should be obvious that I can't send out 20 blu-rays for free. Not even for b+p! I have a life and limited time.

    One guy here thinks I ripped him off because I didn't send him a copy but I sent him an email with a preview asking if he likes it but I never heard of him again. You see on my youtube channel when a show is finished. I usually keep track of all people who provided footage and sent them a mail once the video is done but since I haven't heard from the guy after my last email I simply didn't write him again.
    I don't chase anyone. So, it is not my bad that you don't have a copy, Julian.

    But now we come to a concrete sharing/selling situation: The only U2 2015 shows I recorded and I will make full show multicam mixes of: Cologne.

    To quote u2rmw on my Cologne teaser (hope that's OK Mike!?):
    "I am beyond impressed! Don't waste time on feuds and bitterness, its a waste of time. Make the best show you can and share it. You got something special here."

    Yes, I wanted to get it out. I wanted to share it. BUT having been banned from U2torrents for personal reasons by a person who can't be honest about my ban but uses false pretenses instead - there are other known sellers on U2torrents and they don't get banned and I even don't sell U2! - turned it into a personal matter now.
    Two more members of this community here (and there) went bullshit crazy personal wise on me and caused me sleepless nights. With the actions and sayings from those three people it is only a logical consequence that I don't want these people to get hands on my U2 recordings. That should be understandable.
    It totally sucks that everybody else has to suffer from it and I am sure the crazy people will go even crazier on me but I won't give in. These people will never see my videos and I know they would love to have them! As much as you hate me we all know that my videos will be the best from this tour. I know some people will never be able to speak in good words of my videos but I can live with that.
    That would've never been a reason for me to not release a show.
    I knew before I went to the Colgone shows that I was going to produce the finest U2 multicams in the world. I am a person who loves to share, who loves the feedback, who loves to "show off" but I must pass on this opportunity.
    They won't be for sale. Nobody except two friends of mine who went with me to the shows and recorded for my multicams will get copies. Tapers sent me their audio recordings (I am counting 5 different audio recordings from night 1 and 7 different recordings for Cologne night 2) and their videos for my multicams.
    Before they sent me their recordings I told everybody that I cannot give them a hardcopy of the blu-ray in return. I don't want to have any obligations to anyone. Everyone was sad obviously but still sent me their recordings (well, besides the people who only record videos for their blog) and now everybody is looking forward to a youtube only upload in SD.
    It is sad that it came to this. I really question the ethics and the minds and actions of some people here. The threads I received, the harm that was done to me...I am a person and I did nothing that hurts you. But you hurt me. That is not nice. That is in my books ethically not correct. I have a family and responsibilities.

    Even if it is just words from you Julien, I hope we can settle this now once and for all, agree to disagree, and go our seperate ways or let's meet in Bercy and have a good time! I know that I am a person to like! ;-)
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U2start is run by fans for fans. Help us reduce personal costs. Consider to make a donation to support us.
U2start is run by fans for fans. Help us reduce personal costs. Consider to make a donation to support us.