U2start.com | The Politics Thread (closed again)

Originally posted by bpt3:[..]
With respect, are you a Muslim? Do you have the right to judge how the majority of the world's over 1 billion Muslims should read the Quran? Or do you just read words like "kill infidels" in there and assume that all Muslims do/should read those words literally as applying to all non-Muslims at all times?

Yes, there is a big difference between some of the violent actions that Muhammad carried out in Mecca and the "love your enemies" and peaceful example that Jesus left in the New Testament. But what about the Old Testament? The Old Testament is arguably more violent than the Quran in describing how God orders the Israelites to slaughter entire tribes of people in Canaan. I as a Christian (and maybe you as well) would point out that the New Testament revelation of Jesus provides a new lens through which to interpret the carnage of the Old Testament = this is NOT what God is really like, Jesus is!

But if you make that legitimate interpretive move, then you also have to provide the same opportunity for Muslims to read their holy book in such a way, even if people might disagree over how convincing that is. But just because you might not see that as legitimate doesn't mean you can judge an entire religion and ban people from Muslim countries out of fear.

Sorry, as a Bible teacher I enjoy these kinds of discussions but can sometimes go on too long! Open to more, if you wish.

I have the right to take it for what it says. I also can look at groups who are committing terror and ask is there a common thread. If you dont want to recognize a common thread thats your right. But if a majority of the western terror activities are done by people saying its for Islam and it is a alot of involved besides the ones that carry it out Im going to say there is obviously something wrong with that religion. I wont censor what I see.

Release3

8 years

Originally posted by LikeASong:[..]

Yeah, you just hit the nail on the head without wanting to. Having countries has no point whatsoever (I know I'll be mostly alone on this but who cares).

I agree, too. God created earth and man. Man created borders and boundaries.

amansman

8 years

Originally posted by LikeASong:[..]

Yeah, you just hit the nail on the head without wanting to. Having countries has no point whatsoever (I know I'll be mostly alone on this but who cares).

Well if you agree with the beliefs and laws of North Korea, Iran, Russia, China, Iraq and so on then you should want globalization. But since I dont and wont accept them along with most citizens there will be countries. Also you have ro accept that you will go without if there is globalization. On paper it seems great helping the poor but the rich and powerful like being rich and powerful. So you will have to give up your stuff and to fulfill this dream

amansman

8 years

Originally posted by Release3:[..]
I agree, too. God created earth and man. Man created borders and boundaries.

Give up your citizenship if you truly believe that. You can formally renounce your citizenship. Im not a christian but you should. Thats probably what Jesus would do.

bpt3

8 years

Originally posted by kris_smith87:If this were the 12th Century we'd be worried about Christians killing us on their crusades.

Not all Christians "love thy neighbor".

I find most religious people to be closed minded and full of prejudice.

Personally I think ALL religions are fucked and they shouldn't exist. We'd be a hell of a lot happier.

I'm sorry that this has been your experience of Christians and religious people in general, I truly am. But to judge an entire way of life based on your own personal bad experiences seems a little closed-minded, too, doesn't it? As a religious person I try to refrain from assuming that all non-religious individuals like yourselves are "closed-minded", even though I've certainly met people who are unwilling to question their own basic assumptions about reality...such as where does their sense of basic human dignity and anger at injustice stem from? Can I ask where your own sense of what constitutes "prejudice" is based on?

For instance, if you concede that moral judgments can in fact be made; for instance, that banning entire groups of at-risk people from Muslim countries is wrong - and I think you and I agree on very much politically, from what I've read on this forum! - then where does that judgment come from? If morality is simply subjective based on the majority's will - no God or transcendent source of morality - then can you really argue that prejudice against Muslims is "wrong"?

To circle back to where we agree and to keep this on topic with politics in this thread -

- this is why as a Christian I am feeling compelled to speak out against Trump's policies. I've mentioned before how ironic and sad it is that the same Christians who helped vote him into office seem to become moral relativists when it comes to his statements and now policies concerning immigrants, refugees, and foreigners of all kind, when Scripture and Jesus' example is clear to "welcome the stranger."

Sorry for talking too much again.

bpt3

8 years

Originally posted by amansman:[..]
I have the right to take it for what it says. I also can look at groups who are committing terror and ask is there a common thread. If you dont want to recognize a common thread thats your right. But if a majority of the western terror activities are done by people saying its for Islam and it is a alot of involved besides the ones that carry it out Im going to say there is obviously something wrong with that religion. I wont censor what I see.

Briefly: you don't really have the right to "take it for what it says" if you're not a part of the world's 1 billion and counting Muslims who don't read the Quran as endorsing terrorism.

Also, have you ever "recognized" the common thread between the terrorist attacks of the last several decades and what some might call an "imperialistic" U.S./Western foreign policy that has motivated these kinds of attacks like never before?

amansman

8 years

Originally posted by bpt3:[..]
Briefly: you don't really have the right to "take it for what it says" if you're not a part of the world's 1 billion and counting Muslims who don't read the Quran as endorsing terrorism.

Also, have you ever "recognized" the common thread between the terrorist attacks of the last several decades and what some might call an "imperialistic" U.S./Western foreign policy that has motivated these kinds of attacks like never before?

No I do have that right. I dont have to be Muslim to read their book or see there are common threads. Thats what instincts are for. You obviously dont want to use yours because of your ideology. As far as America imperialism, most of these countries cant get along with their neighbors who are also Muslim countries so no I dont think its because of US imperialism. You know that region has been unstable for thousands of years. I would go with that. Have ever been to Iran or Syria?

amansman

8 years

Originally posted by ahn1991:[..]
You'd be alone plus one in that regard. Our society is well on the road to globalization and it's futile, even childish, to resist.

When other countries get up to speed that our new administration is an utter joke, they'll start imposing restrictions on us and we'll get the isolationist nation the minority of this country so desires.

Spoiler alert: it'll suck a lot.

You should go to the middleast and tell them your idea. Spread the word! This is a great idea! Go over there and get everyone on board. Wish I would of thought of this

bpt3

8 years

Originally posted by amansman:[..]
No I do have that right. I dont have to be Muslim to read their book or see there are common threads. Thats what instincts are for. You obviously dont want to use yours because of your ideology. As far as America imperialism, most of these countries cant get along with their neighbors who are also Muslim countries so no I dont think its because of US imperialism. You know that region has been unstable for thousands of years. I would go with that. Have ever been to Iran or Syria?

You're certainly free to read the Quran and come to your own conclusions, yes. But I'm using my instincts when I choose not to judge an entire religion based on the actions of a small minority, or on a text that I have some familiarity with but not the kind of "insider" knowledge that the world's Muslim population does. That's not ideology so much as it is common sense and respect for others, I would argue.

Most of those countries "can't get along with their neighbors" not because of some inherent flaw in Islam itself but because of differing Muslim sects - Sunni and Shiite, predominantly - disagreeing strongly over which version of Islam is best. Again, showing that you can't really judge all "Muslims" as exhibiting the exact same violent tendencies. I've never been to Iran or Syria, no, but you do realize that that's why I choose not to make blanket judgments about all of their citizens possibly being secret terrorists? Especially - and importantly - when Iran has actually been militarily supporting the Syrian government, causing the very Syrian refugees fleeing from the war-zone to now be told they can't enter the U.S.?

Finally, I'm not sure if you can dismiss Western imperialism so easily. Yes, the Middle East has been volatile for centuries, but many of the nations that Trump is "banning" travel from had their boundaries drawn up by Western nations after World War I. Western ignorance of sectarian differences has caused all kinds of upheaval and unrest since then.

deanallison

8 years

Personally I think ALL religions are fucked and they shouldn't exist. We'd be a hell of a lot happier.

This is quite a strong statement to make and I understand where it's coming from but I'd suggest that not all religions are fucked but rather some people's interpretation of religion is as you say fucked. I think most people will agree that religion should be about love and not hate (sorry to kinda quote Bono lol) but some people are happy to twist things to suit themselves then blame it on a religion when in fact it is there own screwed up heads. Basically my point of view would be blame individuals not religions and in doing so we don't generalise either.

amansman

8 years

Originally posted by deanallison:Personally I think ALL religions are fucked and they shouldn't exist. We'd be a hell of a lot happier.

This is quite a strong statement to make and I understand where it's coming from but I'd suggest that not all religions are fucked but rather some people's interpretation of religion is as you say fucked. I think most people will agree that religion should be about love and not hate (sorry to kinda quote Bono lol) but some people are happy to twist things to suit themselves then blame it on a religion when in fact it is there own screwed up heads. Basically my point of view would be blame individuals not religions and in doing so we don't generalise either.

+1. The best is when religious people tell you that morality comes from their particular religion

amansman

8 years

Originally posted by bpt3:[..]
You're certainly free to read the Quran and come to your own conclusions, yes. But I'm using my instincts when I choose not to judge an entire religion based on the actions of a small minority, or on a text that I have some familiarity with but not the kind of "insider" knowledge that the world's Muslim population does. That's not ideology so much as it is common sense and respect for others, I would argue.

Most of those countries "can't get along with their neighbors" not because of some inherent flaw in Islam itself but because of differing Muslim sects - Sunni and Shiite, predominantly - disagreeing strongly over which version of Islam is best. Again, showing that you can't really judge all "Muslims" as exhibiting the exact same violent tendencies. I've never been to Iran or Syria, no, but you do realize that that's why I choose not to make blanket judgments about all of their citizens possibly being secret terrorists? Especially - and importantly - when Iran has actually been militarily supporting the Syrian government, causing the very Syrian refugees fleeing from the war-zone to now be told they can't enter the U.S.?

Finally, I'm not sure if you can dismiss Western imperialism so easily. Yes, the Middle East has been volatile for centuries, but many of the nations that Trump is "banning" travel from had their boundaries drawn up by Western nations after World War I. Western ignorance of sectarian differences has caused all kinds of upheaval and unrest since then.

This makes little sense if your defending their religion. You not judging their religion but they cant even agree how to intepret it and so they are divided and fight each other. I have to ssy if these people didnt believe in the Quran and made the best decision they could make and took responciblity for their own actions their countries and every other place would be better.

The Politics Thread (closed again)

what they said

did you know

you

forums

U2start